TCAPSLoop Podcast

EdTech Loop Ep. 91: Take Me To Your Leader

It's episode 91 of the EdTechLoop podcast and we are joined by the new boss, not quite the same as the old boss, Evan O'Branovic. Danelle and I grilled the poor guy on almost every current issue involving educational technology during this marathon pod. Evan shares some great insights and a "yes we can," mindset to the pod and District. This is a packed show, enjoy!
 
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Transcript: 
Larry Burden  0:00  
good parenting skills. This guy,
 
Danelle Brostrom  0:03  
Come join us, in this small, sweaty office we call a studio
 
Evan O'Branovic  0:14  
so great 
 
Larry Burden  0:15  
It's back here really, It's safe.
 
Larry Burden  0:18  
I have no idea what I'm talking about now.
 
Larry Burden  0:23  
It's Episode 91 of the EdTech Loop podcast. My name is Larry Burden and she's worryingly started every morning for the last month standing atop her desk declaring Oh Captain, my captain. It's Danielle Brostrom. She doesn't get the reference again. And we are joined by the new boss, not quite the same as the old boss. It's Evan O'Bran...O'Branovic
 
Evan O'Branovic  0:46  
Obranovic
 
Larry Burden  0:46  
Obranovic, I got it right. Yeah. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  0:48  
Nailed it. 
 
Moment of Zen  0:49  
Thank you, Karen. He's here to deepen our understanding around what's new and educational technology. Though not nearly as deep as this week's Moment of Zen. The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist expects it to change, the leader adjust the sails.
 
Larry Burden  1:08  
Though it may have been left unrefrigerated too long, and was surely about to turn, we finally have someone to cook this week's meat of the show. Meet the director.
 
Larry Burden  1:19  
Welcome to the district.
 
Evan O'Branovic  1:20  
Thank you. 
 
Larry Burden  1:21  
Before we get started, I'd like to take a moment and on behalf of the district make a blanket apology for Thomas, just in general, just in general. Besides that, what do you think so far. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  1:33  
I have been extremely impressed so far, coming in from a much smaller district. So, just the pure size and scope and sequence of everything that happens here is quite incredible. 
 
Larry Burden  1:46  
Overwhelming or more like well I can't wait to get my hands on all these... 
 
Evan O'Branovic  1:50  
Oh, both, yeah.
 
Larry Burden  1:51  
Cool toys.
 
Evan O'Branovic  1:52  
We've had plenty of overwhelming moments coming home, looking at my wife like, we're not in Aspen anymore. And then, but it's an extremely exciting opportunity as well so I think that's been kind of what saves those overwhelming moments is feeling like wow there's a lot that I can dig my hands into and the staff around me is incredible so it's been very exciting in that aspect. 
 
Larry Burden  2:14  
What brought you to Traverse City.
 
Evan O'Branovic  2:15  
Well, I grew up downstate. So I'm from Michigan, the mitten, you know, originally and went to Michigan State, go green, 
 
Larry Burden  2:25  
Go blue, 
 
Evan O'Branovic  2:25  
yeah, I know I found that division up here, which is always good. And then I graduated with my degree in elementary education, decided that Michigan was not the place for me and took off out west. Never been to Colorado before but decided that was my time and ended up landing kind of your dream gig in Aspen, Colorado teaching fourth grade. So I did that for six years, convinced my now wife, then girlfriend to come out with me. She's a teacher as well. And then I got my Masters in educational technology, was pursued by my old Tech Director to become a Tech Integrator, found that extremely exciting, rewarding kind of where I wanted to be. And then was always kind of on the lookout for grandiose opportunities to come back to the home state. And so, when I saw this come up, it was something that I had to at least throw my hat in the ring for. And surprisingly, they picked me, which was very exciting and, and then just kind of made the call home and told our parents that were making the move. And like I said before, kind of, for me, being such a big place in terms of just like the scope of how many schools, and the amount of students, and what all happens here. When I got a chance to speak with, you know, staff and see the team that's in place, my final interview was actually flying out here, and kind of checking everything out, it really made that, that size not seem like such an obstacle that I couldn't overcome and so it was really comforting and kind of made that decision for me to take you know a step out of my comfort zone and do something a little bit bigger than myself and so yeah. So far I'm very happy with this decision, but we're only a month and a half in.
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:11  
So what are the trends you see in technology? You know you've been in tech for a while, and, and Ed tech specifically for a while. What kinds of things do you see happening? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  4:20  
You know that's, that's been pretty interesting. From my perspective, I think what you'll find too is, is always that everyone has their two cents and what's tech shifting every so often and in multitude of directions, it's hard to really pinpoint it. And that's one of the exciting yet frustrating things about working with it to me. What I've noticed is mobile centric, meaning, just everything's got to be mobile to use. Can we use our phones, can we use tablets smaller devices. You know what, what in that mobile format can be applied to what we're trying to do because no one wants to waste time with, with computers anymore. In the sense of our big laptops, you know, which is pretty funny thinking how these things are, it's just, it's too heavy, I don't want to carry it with me. But I can have my phone. Can I do it on my phone? And I think our students, you know are the prime example of that. Teachers, were still in the transition but. So yeah, anything mobile, but then as we look at new devices, and you know the laptops, we're going to bring to the staff hopefully this year. It's what devices are touchscreen, which ones are small, and portable and easy to carry. Which ones can flip over into tablet mode. So those to me are just kind of, that's become the trend. What, what can get from point A to point B very easily. What can I pull out and work out on the fly. And so anything that drives to that point, I think is always, you know, kind of, you know, an excitement for people. They look at it, even if it may not be that great of a device, but if it's smaller, it's more mobile, it always will get a second look. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  5:48  
And then connectivity is big. Wi-Fi is water, at this point in our lives as we know. When the Wi-Fi went out last week, so. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:57  
Old fashion day is cool.
 
Evan O'Branovic  5:58  
Old fashion day is cool and everyone gets, you know, real worked up about it because it is like you turned off their water supply. And, and I had several people, when I was doing a school tour that morning when it happened go. Should we just have Wi-Fi days, should we should we not have school if the internet's not there. And I'm like, that has become the first thought right. Can we even do what we need to do if the Wi Fi is not accessible which I think most of us who are a little bit older and came into it as a transition period where like, like you said, it's old fashioned day. So yeah, to me, the connectivity is huge and that goes for a lot of different things too. So, you know, whether it's to the internet, or just, you know, in the classroom setting to me it's always finding interesting how people perceive how they're connecting, meaning to like a display to showcase their class, or to their other students. You know, are those devices easily connectable? Can I bring up a student's screen and show what they're doing? Can I put my screen very easily up on the projector, TV, SMART Board whatever it's going to be? But whatever it is, does it work really quickly and can I do it without really having to have any sort of learning curve? So any devices and tools we can find that do that more simply, I think are home runs. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  7:10  
And then simple as best. I think as things have become more complicated, the less clicks someone has to do, the less work. If I don't have to read a manual and it'll auto set up for me, if it'll connect to that display for me, if the Wi Fi runs by itself, I love it. If it doesn't, and it takes a little digging, you know, with this world everything needs to be faster, quicker, more on point then it just becomes an instant point of frustration for someone who may not be as apt to look into that, and so, you know, what's simplest. But that goes for the tools that the teachers and students are using to. How many clicks does a kid need to use to get into that, you know, curriculum device or whatever the teachers using. And what kind of information do they have to share? I think that's become a big thing to. Do I have to give an email, a password and home address? Forget it, I don't know that kind of time. But if I just need an email and a password great, let's knock it out of the park. Or what kind of information do I need to give, which is a good thing people are becoming more aware of, you know what they're sharing and who has access to that. But that becomes a huge roadblock. And then I think there's a huge piece, from parents, students, Old Guard Teachers, Administrators, of less is more. Too much screen time, too much time on the device, are they really being used purposefully, which I agree with to some point. And so it's really a thoughtful consideration, I think going back to that purpose for use. How are we using it, and just because we have computers and we slap our kids in front of them is that mean they're really learning? Are they doing anything innovative? That's definitely not always the case, and I think you're just seeing that from everybody. Now it comes in different forms. So you'll have, you know, parents are very apt on one side of just, usually it's screen time. How much screen time is my kid getting, and hopefully getting them to ask the right questions of, screen time can be a question but it's, is it purposeful time? If it is, then it's probably worth them sitting down for a little while and using that device. But if they're just kind of doing facts or simple things that can be done in old fashioned day, then, yeah, I think less is more. We don't need to use technology for technology's sake. So that to me has been just kind of a big pickup and something from my role back in Colorado to what I'm seeing here is just the justification and or just the thoughtful use of that technology so that it's being used purposely. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:30  
Fits right into the ISTE Standards and the Triple E Framework stuff that we're really trying to push in this district. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  9:35  
Absolutely. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:36  
Create over consume. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  9:37  
Yes, yes creation to me is, is absolutely key. It's something that I think often gets overlooked. And it's, because it's not easy. It's not easy to have anyone, whether it's from the teacher level all the way down to the student, really try and create something, or look at how they're, they're creating or thinking, you know, a little bit broader than just accomplishing a task. It's always about tying a lot of things together, and you know, that always takes work so. That's tough for teachers, but that's where you're going to get meaningful connections. That's where the learning is going to happen. That's where I think it becomes very easy to justify having your kids on a piece of technology, your students on a device. Because of what the end product is, and the fact that it wasn't just for one simple, you know, task. They didn't just practice math facts. They created, you know, a website explaining a multitude of math concepts that they work together with, but that's not easy. So it takes a lot of work and that's the hard part for sure. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:33  
And a lot of time. 
 
Larry Burden  10:34  
So with time. One of the things that we do struggle with, you know, the kids like the mobile devices, the teachers like the mobile devices, everybody likes mobile devices. Yet, I know we, we struggle at the secondary levels with, maybe, misuse. We want them to be creative. We don't want them to be distracted. How do we, I guess, navigate that balancing act? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  10:55  
Yeah, that's a tough one. I don't think there's a, there are necessarily a sure fast answer to, this is how you make sure all your.
 
Larry Burden  11:02  
Figure it all out. No one's, no one's. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  11:04  
Here's the button to press. That's what everyone wants. Which is always tough, you know. What button can I press? What, I feel like in that same, what app can I give my students so they can't do anything else? Right? What locks down the device? And to me, that's that's asking or approaching it from the wrong angle. So if we're worried about them, you know, we need to force them into this one spot, then, what the activity you're doing is not engaging enough. And that's a lot of ask for the teachers as well. So there's, I'm not trying to downplay what their job is, and that and how they're supposed to do that. But it's really, it starts with people like Danelle and that curriculum, the instructional side of how are you utilizing your mobile device, your laptops, your computers, any sort of technology, to be engaging with the students and making it purposeful. And I would hope in my experience, which has not been long, but with Danielle and David and our other team, our instructional team is, they have that opinion of, if it's not, then don't use it. And that's not to say you just throw it away in the garbage. But you really need to be like, it's okay to step away. I don't need to use this cool new thing all the time just for the sake of using it. So, it's going to take some work I think I'm changing just a mentality of a teacher, of the time, like Danielle mentioned, it would take to, you know, create something that's truly engaging, and how that would be implemented, and what that looks like. And then, you know, contingency plans. So, when it doesn't work, what are you going to do then? Because it's not going to work. I just always like to run under that assumption. It's gonna break. It's going to break probably in the middle of the most important part. And my favorite statement that I've had so far here in the district is, "oh yeah, we were working on that but then technology didn't work." And I'm like, Oh, well that's a bummer. I'm really disappointed that it didn't work. But that's a really broad term. So you know more specific is great but just, that's going to happen, you know, so I try and very kindly redirect that in the sense of, it absolutely it's just not going to work. We can't rely on it because, like I said, it's always changing, it's new things that we're trying to do are usually on the cutting edge, which is great. So you have to plan for a different way to approach it. And so that's kind of the way with that mobile device thing. It can become an absolute distraction and just detraction from what's happening in the classroom and so you either have to spend a lot of time, and I think even if you do, to plan something meaningful you might find that happening. And if that's happening, you need a parachute. How you going to bail out? 
 
Larry Burden  13:39  
What's your plan B? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  13:40  
What's your plan B? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:41  
I want to high five that answer because I think that I hear that on a weekly basis. How can I block my kids from YouTube? How can I keep my kids just on the one website that I want them to go on? And I think, like, as an adult, you have to learn how to balance all of this, and the phone, and just everything. And I think if we never K-12, talk to our kids about how to balance, and what that feels like, and that you struggle with it to. You just kind of send them off and then they don't know how to do it. I don't feel like you can lock everything down. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  14:15  
You can't lock everything down. And if that is your solution to everything then, again, I think just like you spoke to, you're not preparing them for the next level. And that's, you know, I think what everyone touts and everyone is truly deeply meaning to do so. You want to hopefully bring that conversation back around to them and be like, if we want to prepare them for college, no one's going to say, their professors not going, How can I lock them into this app, you can take all those quizzes with your friends next to you and multiple tabs open. So, is that really the goal, is that where we're moving towards? Because that puts a level of complication, onus on, you know, the people say, Thomas to crank things down in a way that becomes I just think unsustainable. You can't, you can't do it. And then again, it's one more thing to break. So you really have to be careful on that balance of, of how much control you want to have versus how much knowledge, skill set, practice you want to impart on those students and teachers to, to just do the tasks that they're trying to do or make meaningful ones, so that people just are naturally engaged in it. You don't have to keep refocusing them because chances are, unfortunately, that might not be the most best use of that time in that lesson. So having that reflection time is huge. And being able to, I guess, except that it was a dud. It's got to be okay I think especially in technology. 
 
Larry Burden  15:40  
You have to be willing to fail. The teacher has to be willing to fail. It's an opportunity to actually model that with a lesson. Sometimes I have, I have this great idea. Didn't work, let's... 
 
Evan O'Branovic  15:51  
Right, 
 
Larry Burden  15:51  
let's move on. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  15:52  
Yeah, because it will not work, it will, it will not work.
 
Larry Burden  15:56  
We would like to get to the point, we talked about this a lot, is, you know, the hope that technology just becomes a tool. It's not even "technology" anymore. It's just, you know, one of many tools. And we're going back to that engagement piece and locking everything down. It's like taking the head off a hammer. Suddenly, it's not a useful tool anymore. Yes. Yeah. The head is the part that's going to hurt you, as well. But if you can instruct the, the educator and the student on the proper use. That would be the more beneficial route to take as opposed to making it no longer tool, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:30  
And the task design, I think that's a big part of this. Have really engaging tasks that draw kids in. Rather than just the lower level recall kind of stuff. That's what's going to keep kids where they need to be. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  16:41  
They just need an emphasis on that, from the top on down of, I think like Daniel mentioned, the time that's involved in that. It's a lot. So to think that you can do that in a 30 minute prep period, it's just not going to happen and that's okay. So hopefully we can start to, you know, as this becomes an absolute ingrained part of what's happening, which I think it very well is terms of using technology within, you know, our teaching day. To really be thoughtful about how we're supporting those teachers and staff to do that. And what that really looks like, and what the best practice is. And I think everyone around you is figuring that out. So I don't think TCAPS is ahead or behind. I think it's a learning process, but you really need to have that at the forefront. And at the same piece, the reflection of, well that plan does not work, or that amount of time is not going to cut it, or what the realistic expectation if this is the only time you can provide, then what can we actually get done that we think is valuable to our students, you know on our staff. And I mean those are hard conversations but I think they need to happen. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:47  
Okay, I know that you love Google. Favorite Google tool and why?
 
Evan O'Branovic  17:52  
This is a good one. Um, I gotta go with a simple Google tool but one I've found the most fun in working with, you know, other teachers and students when I get a chance to get in there is Google Slides. I think it often gets overlooked. It's left as its PowerPoint. PowerPoint for Google I can share it with my students, great. I think there's a lot of little tips and tricks and hacks. Done a few presentations, you know, labeling it as such, with, that you can do with slides to really kind of change the dynamic of how you use it. So changing the page size, which is a super simple change in that, and it kind of changes the whole dynamic of what it's used. It becomes a magazine. You can print it out in eight and a half by eleven. Becomes a virtual, you know, publication where it looks like pages in a book that can be flipped through online. Adding different elements when you can put videos. My favorite thing to do, hopefully my friends back in Colorado, listen to this, I love GIFS. I love making GIFS. So, unfortunately not really funny, guess they're more, you know, educational training GIFS of how to do this that or the other. And so being able to make those short videos and then put them in a slideshow and so people can flip through as they deem necessary and go back and forth, has been my, was my go to in terms of any sort of instructional tool. And people seem to appreciate that far more than listening to my voice for three minutes droning on and on. Or being like, that two minutes, does that where he explained the part I already know? With the slideshow you can just flip back and forth and I just think it's fun to make GIFs. So, and then you get to put a funny one at the end. So I love that piece of slides, and just in general the some of the new adoptions they have with it. Using the, the speaker notes, letting the students be able to voice-to-text
 
Danelle Brostrom  19:47  
Huge
 
Evan O'Branovic  19:48  
into the speaker notes is big. When voice to type first came on a Google Docs so it was great tool for, you know, our students who couldn't type. And how are we going to get them so they would talk into the document. The document would write and then I'm trying to show a first grader how to copy and paste. And that's just, we're not using again, our time wisely. We're pulling the parachute very quickly. And so,
 
Larry Burden  20:09  
What is developmentally appropriate? Not that, it turns out. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  20:12  
Absolutely. And so, it's a go to. And I like it because it's easily accessible. It's one that already people are familiar with. So, when you can kind of show them some really fun ways to utilize it. That's me, tops it for now. Slides is my favorite. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  20:27  
Good answer.
 
Evan O'Branovic  20:28  
Choose your own adventures with slides. That's the best. create links to different pages, hide pages. All kids get a kick out of that especially when you let them make their own.
 
Larry Burden  20:38  
I'm excited to do that. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  20:40  
So give us some insight into a few things we can expect from our TCAPS Technology Department this year. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  20:45  
These are well thought out and ever changing. But what I'm hoping to bring here, and utilize the people and the resource that already here which I've mentioned are great. So a big thing for us is going to be some curriculum partnerships. So how are we working well with our curriculum folks to do all the things that we've just been rambling on about? Without these two departments, you know, working together, being on the same page, communicating better, it's not going to happen. And so I'm really hoping to and by all signs pointing right now, I mean, it's, it's starting to work. But it's a work in progress of just opening those doors, creating those open lines, making sure that as much as curriculum may be on the forefront for some of the things we're doing as technology and like that same mentality to be on the flip. So, is curriculum thinking about technology and because so many of pretty much all new curriculum products involve technology in some way. So, are they first thought to reach out and be like, how is this going to work, what do I not know that I can ask these folks about? I just really want that to be pretty seamless. I want us to work hand in hand. That goes along the lines with doing some other things to that we've already started, like overlaying ISTE Standards into the existing curriculum. So where does it fit in? So not that it's one more thing for teachers. Which we all know does not work and they don't have enough time for. But whereas it just already fitting? And so we can do that groundwork with Curriculum's blessing which we've gotten and then present that to our teachers and be like, see how this is already happening or, point out projects that I know many of them are probably working on and be like, you're doing it. And now you just know what to call it. And that, to me is big, and I think, not to be able to reference ISTE Standards for Students and then Teachers themselves is doing, you know, a big disservice to how technology is really going to work with education. so it's really important to me. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  22:40  
And then the buzzword STEM. So, we have a lot of STEM talk and what that action actually looks like and technology is right in that. So, to think that we're not going to be involved in some way, is just not a possibility. So just, how we can help support that. Because everyone's talking about STEM and my experience is everyone has different views of what that actually means. It's a good word to say again my experience someone can probably comment, call in and comment.
 
Larry Burden  23:10  
We can get it really confusing and throw STEAM in there and really have some conversations
 
Evan O'Branovic  23:13  
STEAM to. But just like I just, I think I said to Danielle, I think everyone says the word STEM and then in their head goes, please don't ask me specifically what I'm talking about, when I say STEM. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  23:24  
That's my next question for you Evan. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  23:25  
Yeah, so please don't. Please don't ask me that. I'll say it closer to the mic so that it's more clear. Please don't ask me. But yeah, so that one's an important one. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  23:36  
We want to look at our workflow. There's so much going on with technology the department's so big, you know, between the data team, the instructional team, the network people. How are we working smarter, not harder. I think a lot of those systems are already in place, or at least, you know, been talked about. And I'm hoping to just help kind of drive that ship, and make sure that it does become more efficient, and people feel like their work is valued. And that we're not redoing things that already have been done well. And so just kind of tying that all together. The libraries are another important one, working with Stephie a lot on just starting by what everything looks like. How the libraries are operating, and what our kind of dreams and hopes are for those spaces, and how we can really turn them into moving from an old library model, which, again, I think it's just a national trend of just books in a room, to where it truly becomes a dynamic learning space. And again, that's a buzz thing, kind of like STEM, you'll see a lot of people want to do that. So, but I actually do want to do it, as I know many other people in this district do. So how is that going to look? It's not going to be easy, but I think we have all the pieces in place to really make some changes there. So looking at the libraries is going to be huge. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  24:52  
Lastly, in instructional support. The one thing that shocked me about coming here was we have 1.6, 1.6
 
Danelle Brostrom  24:59  
Small but mighty. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  24:59  
Danelle and Dave instructional team for 15 or 16, schools technically, probably 16 officially right? How many students 10,000 plus, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  25:12  
and staff 
 
Evan O'Branovic  25:13  
and staff 
 
Danelle Brostrom  25:14  
and support staff. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  25:16  
And support staff.
 
Danelle Brostrom  25:16  
and, and...
 
Evan O'Branovic  25:18  
so as impressed as I was about everything, 
 
Larry Burden  25:22  
That's why the podcast is only 20 minutes long.
 
Evan O'Branovic  25:24  
which I still am impressed. Just how we can help that. I'm coming from a district, to give myself away, very small, three schools. And I had two Tech Integrators, myself and another person for three schools, and we were jockeying to get a third. So we had seen, but I think that's hopefully a compliment to us the value of our position. And so we were hoping that to be most effective, we really needed one per school in order to help that staff, and, and touch base with all those people on a regular basis. And so now I'm coming to this place...
 
Larry Burden  26:01  
There's a lot of smiles in here. We are holding the laughing in.
 
Evan O'Branovic  26:06  
that is not very close to that. Which is unfortunate, and it's not the end of the world. And so I think, you know, looking at that, maximizing the time and the resources that Danelle, David and to an extent, Stephie, you have to really figure out how we can use that. And we've had some of those discussions. And then, you know, maybe down the road, If we can do a good job, which I think we will have showcasing that value of, is this a position we need to increase, bring into the fold, Really, you know, showcase how that can be helpful. If Danelle can see a building, or someone like a Danelle can see a building more than once every couple weeks in an ideal world which probably isn't even always plausible, You know, moon shot.
 
Larry Burden  26:53  
Live the the dream, Danelle
 
Unknown Speaker  26:54  
Moon shot
 
Larry Burden  26:54  
live the dream, 
 
Evan O'Branovic  26:55  
The new guy, you know, he has a lot of hopes and dreams and then he settles into the reality. But I try and hold on to them for as long as possible so that we can make it happen.
 
Larry Burden  27:03  
I didn't sound like you have, you've had a bedding in period at all. You basically jumped right into the fire. And, 
 
Evan O'Branovic  27:08  
yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  27:08  
it had been on the burner for a while.
 
Evan O'Branovic  27:10  
Yeah, there was no, just relaxing. I've been told a variety of different timelines I have as the new guy. It goes anywhere from three months to a year. Some I'm hoping I get the year to really adjust myself. We'll see if the three months people will hold me to that and see if I got everything locked in within about three months. But it's a lot is a lot happening. And I definitely come from the instructional side of things. So that's my strengths, which I really enjoy doing. And something that you know, gets me going and then I've been trying to pick up, though I had some experience with all the technical side of things. You know, that's where I lean heavily on the Thomases the Bills, 
 
Larry Burden  27:48  
So Sorry,
 
Evan O'Branovic  27:49  
All this 
 
Evan O'Branovic  27:50  
So, sorry.
 
Evan O'Branovic  27:51  
You know, have their, have their own quirks, but are a great group of guys. And so, you know, I just lean really heavily on them to be like, what do I need to know to best help you, support you? That's what I'm all about. How can I support all these people? Because, they all do their jobs really well. They don't need me to micromanage. So I'm trying to avoid that. That's the goal.
 
Larry Burden  28:12  
Well, it sounds like there's gonna be some pushing and asking that infrastructure to do some things that maybe it's not quite set up to do right now. And having a good understanding of that, allowing yourself some time to have a good understanding of that, so. 
 
Evan O'Branovic  28:23  
Yeah, we're working on a whole lotta "Yes," right now. So that's what I pitched at the beginning. Probably gonna over Yes. Meaning we'll say yes to a lot of things. And I'm sure we'll have to reel that back a little bit. But I'm hoping to that's all my vision of, of trying to build those relationships. Show people that we're here to support. But that goes in both ways, meaning and I want to say yes to our team internally to for ideas they have, suggestions on how to make things happen. And I think if we can do a little bit more of that and do it in a reasonable fashion that we can accomplish, we're really going to showcase the value. And then it becomes easier to get some of those high level big goals done. Like have more Tech Curriculum Coordinators and EdTech coaches. All those good things that I think are just as important as the infrastructure data side, which is also vitally important, but we, I want more of a balance. 
 
Larry Burden  29:18  
The goal is to have it unseen. And nobody asked questions about it. It just works. Now It's time to actually teach people the tool.
 
Evan O'Branovic  29:24  
Right. Now, what's the data center? No one knows. It's just that building over there that used to be an old  elementary. That's always fun to show people, though. People who don't have an awareness of what the data center here at TCAPS looks like. That is an incredible building and just operation from a school district standpoint. I've never seen anything like it. I'm sure they exist in other places. But I was blown away by that. And that, to me is a really exciting piece to have and to know it's already in place. So we're moving on past that. 
 
Larry Burden  29:55  
What else you got?
 
Danelle Brostrom  29:55  
Wanna play game? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  29:57  
I do. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  29:57  
Okay. Brand new segment on the pad. This is called, This or That. Rapid fire. You gotta answer, okay?
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:04  
So you're going to give you two options, and I just hit it with one or the other. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:08  
You got it, one or the other. Okay? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:09  
I can handle that. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:10  
First, Google Docs or Google Sheets? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:13  
Sheets. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:14  
Podcast or Radio? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:16  
Podcast. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:17  
Let's talk about devices, touchscreen or just use the mouse?
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:21  
touchscreen.
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:22  
Michigan State or U of M?
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:23  
Michigan State. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:24  
Work with the Tech Department or go rogue?
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:29  
Work with the Tech Department.
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:31  
text or call on the phone millennial? 
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:33  
Text all day. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:35  
Lucy or Rosie?
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:39  
Rosie.
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:39  
I didn't think you were going to answer.
 
Larry Burden  30:39  
I would not have answered that.
 
Evan O'Branovic  30:47  
Not becuase...Rosie doesn't get the love my first born Lucy does. So my wife does a very nice job of taking care of Lucy and giving her everything and anything she wants. And don't get me wrong, she gets anything she wants for me too. But I try and lean on Rosie a little bit. she's second child and she needs that love, so I try and be that, that support system for her. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  31:07  
Nice 
 
Evan O'Branovic  31:08  
So that's what I'm leaning on. So we split. You know right now we can still play man to man. And do not have to go zone. So yeah, I'd say my wife's got Lucy. And I got Rosie. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  31:18  
Love it. 
 
Larry Burden  31:19  
Tech Tool of the Week.
 
Techtool of the Week  31:24  
Tech Tool of the Week, Headspace is free for educators. This happened over the summer. Headspace is a meditation app. And it is also located on your computer. So you can use it either one. But they went free for educators, which is exciting because there's an entire section for kids. You know that we love using meditation to bring kids down after recess, to bring kids to a place of getting ready to take assessments, or just to a place of calm. And I think Headspace has some really good options for kids. There's a whole section where you can choose an age group and find really quick three to six minute meditations that are perfect for the classroom. So I'll put that link in the show notes.
 
Larry Burden  32:00  
They do a great job. That particular app does a great job of actually teaching the concepts of mindfulness in a way that's understandable and not to cosmic.
 
Danelle Brostrom  32:08  
The graphics are beautiful too. And it's just a really, really nice tool for educators. 
 
Larry Burden  32:13  
absolutely
 
Danelle Brostrom  32:13  
I like it even better than Calm.
 
Evan O'Branovic  32:14  
And they're doing full circle there. They're helping you maybe not want to be on your phone or an app with a phone or an app. So they're working themselves by being to good out of their own business but that's impressive. It's a good goal.
 
Larry Burden  32:26  
All right, um, tutorials and updates just wanted to point out that we have a TechNollerGist pod recording on Thursday should drop on Friday. Just in time for the weekend. So clear out the calendars for the weekend so you can listen to the pod. You'd mentioned earlier TCAPSLoop YouTube channel is not dead yet. There will be things to be put on TCAPSLoop YouTube channel, it just hasn't happened yet this year. We're still early, give it some time. In closing Follow us on Facebook and Twitter @tcapsloop, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  32:52  
@brostromda, 
 
Evan O'Branovic  32:54  
@evanobranovic 
 
Larry Burden  32:55  
Nice. Subscribe to the podcast on podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store and Spotify. Leave a review, we love the feedback. Thank you for listening and inspiring.
 
Larry Burden  33:08  
Oh we're just gonna play that on a loop.

EdTech Loop Ep. 89: Making PD Not Stink

We've heeded the wise writing of "Ditch your Textbook's" Matt Miller, and hope to help you make your next PD not stink. We've all been there. You're partially through a session or keynote and are trying to decide if it's worth your time to sit through the rest. This episode will share some tips to make you a better presenter and help keep your colleagues engaged so they won't decide they have better things to do than listen to you.
 
Useful Links:
http://ditchthattextbook.com/2019/09/25/27-tips-to-deliver-powerful-professional-development/
Jennifer Gonzalez covered this topic in the Cult of Pedagogy podcast as well…
Gamestorming: https://gamestorming.com/
METS at miGoogle 
 
The Un-redacted Transcript 
Danelle Brostrom  0:00  
That's not what is says on your business card
 
Larry Burden  0:11  
It is not an inspiring car.
 
Danelle Brostrom  0:13  
It gets great gas mileage,
 
Larry Burden  0:15  
striving for mediocrity.
 
Larry Burden  0:18  
Drives like a peach, hon.
 
Larry Burden  0:23  
It's episode 90 of the EdTechLoop podcast, My name is Larry Burden, and she's decided to ditch my suggested pod topic, it's Danelle Brostrom. You can't find true wisdom from a textbook, but you can find it in this week's moment of Zen. 
 
Moment of Zen  0:39  
When you see a good person, Think of becoming like her or him. When you see someone not so good. Reflect on your own weak points. 
 
Larry Burden  0:49  
In an effort to develop a more professional palette, we've consulted the experts on how to better prepare, This, this week's meat of the show, making PD better professional development better. We've all been there. We have been into that session, and that keynote. Depends on your level of politeness. Do you sit through the whole session? Or do you get up and... 
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:12  
I sit through the session. 
 
Larry Burden  1:14  
I respect, see now I can go in and I'll have like a camera or something trying to get some shots are record it. And I have to go to the next session because I you know, I have to try to get a swath of information out of this, so.
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:28  
Yeah, but sometimes you can't choose. Sometimes you're stuck in that bad PD because that's the PD you have to take. And then you're stuck.
 
Larry Burden  1:35  
There is that yeah, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:36  
yeah,
 
Larry Burden  1:36  
The initial pod topic that I was going to talk about,
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:39  
that I ditched,
 
Larry Burden  1:41  
Which I thought was going to be a winner, because we're going to talk about your favorite subject, Liz Kolb. She had a keynote this year at WiredTC. And I was actually going to talk about her keynote and the fact that she did not...she wasted no time. She basically came up there. And it was it was a different, a different vibe than most keynotes that I've been to because she was basically like, I'm a professional, you're a professional, you're here to get some information from me, I am giving you that information. Let's do this. Let's act like professionals. And I was looking through some of the resources that you had brought up. And I'm like, Yeah, like that.
 
Danelle Brostrom  2:22  
Yeah, yeah, she was amazing. And, you know, the reason I ditched your topic, Larry, Matt Miller had a great post the other day on Twitter. And he's the writer of, "Ditch that Textbook." And he talked a lot about PD, and how sometimes it can be awful. And we've all sat through it. So he gave a ton of ideas on ways to make PD better, and then throw it out to the group. And it just kind of got me thinking that we do need to talk about this since the beginning of the year, and we're all a little rusty. So it's a good time to bring this back. And I'm guilty of this too, you know, you I've gone in and I've had so much information to present and very little time to do it. So I went wide instead of deep with a few topics. And I just, I bored them to death as I read from the slideshow, because I, I got nervous. And I knew I had a lot to cover. And, oh, ick, I hate that I falter to that if I'm not careful. So I think it's something to be aware of and really, really think about. And when you know better you do better. So Let's, let's go through some of these things. 
 
Larry Burden  3:26  
Make it useful. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  3:26  
Let's make it useful. 
 
Larry Burden  3:27  
So there's 21 I don't know if we're gonna make it through all 21. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  3:29  
No, I didn't want, I want to talk about the big ones.
 
Larry Burden  3:33  
Okay, the first you have one specific one, because I want your explanation on this. So
 
Danelle Brostrom  3:38  
The first one, I think he talked about this in a couple different ways. But I really think you need to think about your audience. And like you mentioned, Liz really did that she talked to her audience like they were professionals. But I think you need to find out where your audience is at, try to figure out what they're thinking, read your audience. Don't just read from your slideshow, look at them and kind of see how they're taking in the information. And I think just really trying to connect with them. So, you can ask them questions while you're there. You can try to ask them questions beforehand and a survey. But I think just finding out where your audience is coming from, and then trying to connect with them is like the number one thing you need to remember with doing PD, always. 
 
Larry Burden  4:21  
I have a feeling a lot of these are going to also apply to being a classroom teacher. It's kind of the same thing. It is kind of funny that oftentimes, especially in our field, the people that we're getting professional development, who are running these sessions are teachers, and then they get into this environment, and all those pedagogical...
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:41  
Good word 
 
Larry Burden  4:42  
Skills kind of seem to go, sometimes, tend to go out the window. So anyway, I just wanted to...
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:47  
No, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because yes, 100%. We are amazing educators and we deliver content to students in a way that is creative and interesting. And we make it fun. And we do all, we do it hands on, and then we get into PD mode and we go back to that lecture base. And I don't know why we forget all those things. You know, adults do learn differently. And there are some things that we can talk about at a later date. But for the most part, the adults deserve that same respect, and they should also... 
 
Larry Burden  5:25  
Taller children, with a shorter attention span.
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:28  
True, especially teachers. But they deserve that same respect. They deserve PD that is creative, and inspiring, and interesting, and hands on, and I think Jennifer Gonzales covered this in a Cult of Pedagogy podcast, a while ago. But, she said the same thing. Like, treated just like teaching. Make a hands-on, differentiate, use guided practice. Like all those things that you know how to do with children, do them with adults in PD to. And yes, we should 100% be doing that.
 
Larry Burden  6:00  
Got you off track, sorry.
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:01  
No, that was that was on track, always. 
 
Larry Burden  6:04  
One time, one time I kept us on track.
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:08  
And I think, I think and Matt Miller mentions this too, when he talks about giving them hands on practice, and giving them time to talk about what they're learning, and including a variety of examples. Like, again, all those are teacher tips that we shouldn't be doing. If, if you just deliver your content, and they never get a chance to talk about it. I think if you look at the research from Joyce and Showers, this resource on, research on coaching, but it's still says if you're just giving them theory all the time, it, only like five or 10% of the people are going to retain it and actually use it. So, you obviously want more than that, if you're taking the time to do a PD wasting everyone's, not wasting everyone's time, I did not mean that. But...
 
Larry Burden  6:49  
Maximizing their time.
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:49  
Maximizing their time, you have to make sure that you're doing more. You need to give them a chance to talk. You to give them a chance to try the tool with you there, walking around. Or just giving them a bunch of examples about how this, this can apply to these different situations. How can this apply to you as a third grade teacher? How Can this apply to you as an 11th grade teacher? Like how does this, how does this work? Like let's actually dive in and look at it instead of just, here's what I need to teach you.
 
Larry Burden  7:18  
Earlier, I had mentioned that, you know, Liz Kolb had kind of gone directly into the topic and into the research very quickly. It doesn't mean you have to ditch the narrative. It's okay to tell a story and include the learning in, in a story. That's going to be more compelling, it's going to be, oftentimes that the person that session, or listening to that keynote, is going to have five more that day. There's a lot of information coming in, you're going to have to have some kind of a hook for it to be retained.
 
Danelle Brostrom  7:53  
For sure. And I want to see us make PD more fun. Like, I sometimes I dread seeing those PD blocks on my calendar, those things that I have to go to because I think that it's going to be two hours or so that I'm going to be missing away from my family. How can, how can we make PD more fun? How could we, as presenters, could we, you know, change it up with a game or give them a short funny video. Like, when they're having fun, and research will tell us this one learning is enjoyable, better learning takes place. So, that goes for adults and for kids. So, never design a training you and want to set through yourself. You know, let's let's make it, Let's make it fun.
 
Larry Burden  8:42  
While then going back to what you had said, I think, your first point, have some empathy as well. Recognize that it has to be fun for you or something that you see as fun, but take yourself out of it for a second and recognize that other people might have different interests or different points of view, and at least have that level of empathy. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:01  
For sure. 
 
Larry Burden  9:01  
What else
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:03  
I really liked one of the topics or one of the tips that Matt Miller mentioned was to be your own unique self. And I think that this is something I really don't do. And I think it was something that I'd like to start. It just, he just talks about if you have a skill or talent, how can you use that to enhance your professional development? If You can sing or play an instrument? Could you create a song? If you can draw, or at least are willing to try, could you sketchnote your session as it's being presented? If you have a knack for making videos, make some of your own videos to include. I think that those are great ideas, because it just helps people connect with you. Especially if you're willing to be a little silly, or a little, a little different. I think that will help them remember what you're doing as well.
 
Larry Burden  9:47  
As long as you’re topical.
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:48  
Oh, of course.
 
Larry Burden  9:49  
As long as your on topic that, I think 
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:51  
100% Yes, 
 
Larry Burden  9:52  
I'm going to guess you're gonna get to this. No to Edutainment. If you're up there just trying to grandstand and look at my video that I made. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:04  
Right, right. Right. Right. Right, 
 
Larry Burden  10:05  
It might be compelling. But if it's, if it has nothing to do with your topic, or maybe kind of does. They're spending time with you, make sure that time is well used.
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:16  
Yes. 100%. Yes. And then the other one that I really thought was important. Just to keep the conversation going. They're, typically when you deliver a PD is something that you want them to do in their classrooms. So, how are you going to keep that conversation going, They're going to struggle, they're going to have, need, they're going to need you. They're going to need that group of learners that they learned with. So how do you keep that conversation going after? Do have them connect with you on Twitter? Do you have a Google Classroom setup so that way they can come on and ask questions later. It's just a nice way for people to have that recurring conversation and actually move the needle.
 
Larry Burden  10:52  
I don't know what this one was. I'm gonna throw it out there. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:54  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  10:55  
Speed dating activity. I have not witnessed this. I don't know what it actually it was. It was in his list. Yes. Did you read it? And have you done it? In a professional development setting. Want to clarify.
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:09  
Going back, Larry, I did. I have done that before? I don't love that one. Honestly, unless I'm comfortable with the people around me. I don't always like...
 
Larry Burden  11:21  
Because you're such an introvert. I recognized
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:23  
sometimes I am. Sometimes, I don't know.
 
Larry Burden  11:26  
Every, everybody that knows you right now is like...right.
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:29  
You asked me. Sometimes I don't like it. Because sometimes I'm talking to people that I don't know about topics that I don't feel comfortable talking to people about. But I guess it gets people talking, which is what you want. You want people to be talking, you want them to have conversations, which it does. So Yes,
 
Larry Burden  11:46  
It would push me out of my comfort zone as well. But sometimes you do have to do, if you're going, if you're going to go to a professional development seminar or professional development situation, you should be willing to be pushed out of your comfort zone. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:57  
Yes, yes, yes. But there's also some ideas that I think that connect to this PD topic. Things that I personally want to try. Gamestorming is a new thing that's kind of been making the rounds within the ed tech leaders. And it's a way of looking at, it says it's a set of co-creation tools used by innovators around the world, is what it says on their website. But it's really just, it's games, games, for opening, games for fresh thinking and ideas, games for team building, game for vision and strategy building. And I think that a lot of these ideas that they use on the gamestorming site, could be very easily adapted to PD. So I'm, I know I'm ordering the playbook. So that way, I can have some more ideas on how to use these resources. But that's definitely something that I'm going to be doing some personal research on, because I think that could help enhance PD. And again, include that conversation, we got people talking. And then another thing I want to mention on the METS Group, the Michigan Educational Technology Specialist, they are doing a session at MyGoogle this year. And it's a workshop session. It's on November 4 in the morning. And it's, now it's made for ed tech coaches. It's a session on ed tech coaching. But man, if anybody, If anybody locally, I say locally, statewide, knows how to deliver a good PD. It's that METS Group, that's kind of their specialty. Every PD I've ever gone to, and anything I've done with that group, they've been amazing at making PD not stink. So I think if you want to go, even if you're not an ed-tech specialist, if you are in this coaching role, or you are in an administrative role, and you deliver a PD, go to this with with, with that lens. They're going to talk about gamestorming. And they're going to go through some different ideas on how to deliver PD better. But, also kind of watch them and how they deliver PD because I think that you can learn a lot sitting in something that is really, really good.
 
Larry Burden  13:48  
Not only take notes on the content, take notes on the presenter.
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:50  
Because they're going to be amazing. Yeah, I'm sure of it. They deliver amazing PD. And that's kind of their thing. So go and learn what they do. 
 
Larry Burden  13:57  
Anything else?
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:58  
I have nothing else on that. 
 
Larry Burden  14:00  
All right, Tech Tool of the Week. 
 
Techtool of the Week  14:04  
Kind of related, Remote for Slides. This is a game changer. It is a Chrome extension. So you add it on to your device. And then there's a website that you go to, and you go to that website on your phone, and then you can control your Google Slideshow through your phone. So all of a sudden bye bye clicker. I cannot tell you how many times I have lost, when I've been presenting out and...
 
Larry Burden  14:35  
What's it called? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:35  
without the dongle. I have lost that I've left it plugged into machines. And then I've had to go say to Mr. Hicks, I need a new clicker. And It's really embarrassing. But, all I do is I just pull it up on my phone, and then I can run through my Google slideshow from anywhere. And It's amazing. And it's kind of a game changer for those who deliver a lot of PD. 
 
Larry Burden  14:56  
If you're presenter that's... 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:58  
Yeah,
 
Larry Burden  14:59  
Invariably your batteries are out. You forgot the dongles. Somebody else brings a clicker in, it doesn't quite work. It doesn't sync, it has to down, it has to download the app, it has ya know, firmware issues. It's always something that goes wrong with the clicker. So to actually have it on your phone and just bink, bink, bink. That's awesome.
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:17  
Crazy easy. Crazy fast to setup. I think, from when I found it to when I was rolling through walking around the office telling everyone I know hey, check this out, guys. Maybe like four minutes. It's amazing.
 
Larry Burden  15:30  
Tutorials and updates. We did a BiblioTech pod just a few days ago with Melissa Baumann on middle school libraries. That was really really interesting.
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:39  
The better Baumann, I like that. I listen.
 
Larry Burden  15:42  
Sorry, Andy. TechNollergist is actually up next week, first TechNollergist of the year. Very excited about that. I had a really interesting experience before I came down here and this is as far away from edu-tech as you could possibly get, I think. And it was a Stone Soup gathering. And I don't know if you're familiar with the Stone Soup parable, I'm sure everybody is, you've read the books. It's been around obviously for ever. But, an entire school, classroom, by classroom was going in and adding things to the big soup pot and you know, they put a stone in. Every, every class got to put one stone in. And it's a great way to A, incorporate the idea of sharing and caring into your school community. But also a great way to include the entire community, not just the school, but your local farmers. The school that we were at at had their own community gardens, so they actually used a lot of their own herbs and spices and things that they had grown. But we also had, they also had some local vendors come in and help with ingredients. It was fabulous. And they've done it for two years now. And it was neat to see the older students commenting on what it means. Any comments on Stone Soup? Your'e all, I wanted to be there.
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:58  
I did want to be there.
 
Larry Burden  16:59  
It smelled great by-the-way.
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:00  
It's a good reminder that it takes a team to make something awesome.
 
Larry Burden  17:02  
Yeah, yeah. Follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:05  
@brostromda
 
Larry Burden  17:06  
Subscribe to the podcast on Podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store and Spotify. Leave a review, we love the feedback. I can do that all with one breath. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:16  
You forgot to thank them. 
 
Larry Burden  17:18  
Oh, thank you for listening and inspiring.
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:20  
I wasn't ready Larry, 
 
Larry Burden  17:21  
Thank you for listening and inspiring. How many times can I say it? Thank you for listening and, inspiring.
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:31  
You always say something else, Larry.
 
Larry Burden  17:34  
I don't know what to do with the rest of my day.

BiblioTech Ep. 8: Middle School LMC

We know the elementary school media center is a safe, magical place for many kiddos to explore "Mirrors and Windows." We also know transitioning to Middle School can be pretty overwhelming at the start of the school year. We attempt to draw a Media Center Map for that new Middle School student who just forgot their locker combination, couldn’t find their 2nd hour class and is having a bad hair day (and now surprisingly cares)?
Useful Links
TCAPS Online Catalog
Research in Context
East Middle School Library Media Center Website  
 
Show Transcript
Melissa Baumann  0:11  
What do I need to know about a podcast?
 
Larry Burden  0:13  
If there's something that we don't want I go through and edit it.
 
Larry Burden  0:16  
Usually it's editing me.
 
Larry Burden  0:20  
It is episode eight of BiblioTech podcast, my name is Larry Burden and she's more than ready to delve into the awkward preteen phase, it's Stephie Luyt with our special guest, the better Baumann, Melissa Baumann, 
 
Melissa Baumann  0:32  
Appreciate that. Thank you. 
 
Larry Burden  0:33  
We know the elementary school Media Center is a safe magical place for many kiddos to explore mirrors and windows. We also know transitioning to middle school can be pretty overwhelming at the start of the school year. Can we draw a middle school map for our new middle school students who just forgot their locker combinations, couldn't find their second hour class and are having a bad hair day, and now surprisingly, actually care. So, you know, I was thinking about this and I was going way way back into my days in middle school which, you know, it's kind of hazy, and there's kind of a sepia tone. And I remember going from that elementary school library which is so safe and so comforting and you know is the place to go into middle school and already panicked about everything and then there's a huge space, and where do I start, where do I go. What does that look like for for a sixth grade student? Maybe this isn't the direction you're going but that was the first thing that I thought about. 
 
Melissa Baumann  1:27  
Well, one thing that I'm doing this year is focusing on the sixth grade students so that they feel more comfortable so I've spent the last couple weeks having orientation for the sixth grade classes I just finished up at West Middle School, all the students came down with their teacher we went over the policies and procedures and then I had a scavenger hunt that was created for them, and they worked with a partner to explore the different spaces of the library, to examine how the collection, collection is arranged. And then we'll follow it up with the online resources, during their second visits to the library which will happen in two weeks. So I hope that they feel more comfortable already. 
 
Stephie Luyt  2:04  
And those, you know the move from our elementary spaces, yes smaller space, let fewer kids but our middle school libraries are just as welcoming and just as friendly and working on those same things mirrors and windows and once our kiddos get acclimated with the schedule and find feel comfortable with their classes and all that the library is just another wonderful place with lots of amazing resources both middle schools. So we're excited to have our sixth graders up in the middle schools and really excited to have Melissa in the middle schools. Melissa is new with us last year into the middle school but if you want to just tell us a little bit about what worlds you came from. 
 
Melissa Baumann  2:42  
Sure, I am definitely very familiar with middle school. I spent seven years in Chicago teaching at the middle school level, then I took some time off and then when I came back, and was hired by TCAPS I was doing a little bit of elementary Spanish, and then made my way back to middle school, because that's where I feel happiest. So I spent seven years teaching Spanish at West Middle School and then when the position in the library opened up I was extremely intrigued by that and wanted something new. And now I'm working on my degree so I think it's been the perfect choice for me.
 
Stephie Luyt  3:16  
And Melissa is splitting time between both schools so kiddos will see her in both buildings east and west and. As well as our LMP's that are in both buildings who are there to help students with all sorts of check-out, check-in, book recommendations, anything. Those libraries are really top notch and functioning, really, with students needs first and doing an amazing job so. 
 
Melissa Baumann  3:39  
Absolutely.
 
Stephie Luyt  3:40  
We're thrilled.
 
Melissa Baumann  3:40  
Completely agree about that. 
 
Larry Burden  3:41  
So what are the, what are some of the differences between that elementary school library, and the middle school library? What can they expect that's maybe, maybe the same that will comfort them in, and what are some of the differences that might expand what they expect from a library. I think in terms of what would be the same, the access to all the literature and all the nonfiction and all the resources that kids would be looking for for their own exploration and interests and personal learning as well as in school learning. The logistics of how they visit the library has changed when they move into middle school they are much more individual focused in terms of they're going on their own time more often. Sometimes they're visiting with classes. But in elementary they're always for the most part accessing the library with their classes with exceptions they do go down a little bit, but I would say that they are more independent users with, and I would say that's the same for a lot of middle school, I mean they become more independent students, they're visiting classes you know, switching classes, making that switch. So it falls into that same sort of shift that they make in middle school. But I think all the things that they love about the library, are there, and even multiplied when they move up into the older grades. 
 
Melissa Baumann  4:53  
And I think that, especially the ELA teachers are committed to having those library visits with their students at the middle school, it just might not be as frequently. I think most of them are on a bi-weekly visit. But I have already started working with those teachers that have been coming in. And they do tend to bring their students in for maybe the first half of the period or the second half of the period so maybe a little bit shorter visit as well, when they come into the class but they are still committed to bringing their students down.
 
Larry Burden  5:20  
I have these questions so I'm just going to float them out there and feel free to say Larry I've got my own and I would like to actually throw those in there to.
 
Larry Burden  5:27  
So what are you guys doing to promote the middle school library? 
 
Melissa Baumann  5:31  
Yeah, that's a great question, um, the first thing that I noticed when I arrived on the scene last November was that there really wasn't an online presence for the library. So I followed the model of both of the high schools and worked with ReaAnn to create a web page for both East and West Middle Schools. It has access to the online catalog and the students can have access through the, to the databases. It has other great resources that are available on the web for them. And it also showcases what's coming up in the library so we're featuring the author visit that will be happening on the 30th at East Middle School, and at West Middle School we have a display going on to honor Banned Books Week, 
 
Stephie Luyt  6:11  
And it looks fabulous. 
 
Melissa Baumann  6:12  
Oh, thank you. 
 
Stephie Luyt  6:13  
Finding that online presence, is it in the cloud? Is it on the TCAPS web page? 
 
Melissa Baumann  6:18  
Right, so I wanted to make it as simple as possible for the students. So when they come to the cloud, they have a tile that they can access the online catalog specifically, or they have a tile that will take them to the web page for each Middle School. So it's, it's one click. 
 
Stephie Luyt  6:34  
I have a question just going back a little bit. When the kids are coming into the middle school and as we're talking about they're accessing the library sometimes more independently. When are the middle school libraries available for kids to use? 
 
Melissa Baumann  6:45  
Yeah, we covered this during orientation, and it's exciting because most of the sixth graders have already been utilizing the space, even though they didn't really know how to navigate the space. So pretty much around 7:15 in the morning, they're welcome to come in before school. Both libraries stay open for about 15 minutes after school, and then the students are welcome to come in during lunch, as long as there isn't a class that has the space checked out. They can stay for the entire time after they've been in the cafeteria, eating. 
 
Stephie Luyt  7:13  
So there's lots of access. 
 
Melissa Baumann  7:14  
Yes, and then of course, if a teacher independently wants to send a student down as long as they have a pass they're welcome to come in and use the space. 
 
Stephie Luyt  7:22  
And just because I know they'll be listeners who may not have been in our middle schools. This space can be used in lots of different ways but both sites have like, a really comfortable, like welcoming reading area, kind of like a bookstore. You know that feeling of some really neat comfortable chairs, some reading spaces, some learning spaces, some whole group learning, you know, there's this, this space accommodates lots of different needs, and I think there's a spot for everybody in the library.
 
Melissa Baumann  7:48  
I full y agree, yes. 
 
Larry Burden  7:50  
If you were marketing to a student right now. What would a student not expect going into a middle school library. If they have the traditional mindset of what a media center, a library is, you had mentioned one thing already, the kind of book storey type of feel. 
 
Stephie Luyt  8:05  
yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  8:06  
What else, what else would they be surprised, maybe, or would surprise them? 
 
Melissa Baumann  8:09  
I think many of the students during the orientations have expressed that they're just surprised at how many books there are. They're not, they're just not used to having a collection that's as large as what we have at the middle schools. 
 
Stephie Luyt  8:21  
Maybe they'd be surprised to find the number of PlayAways, that some of the sites have. The PlayAways are another format to listen to an audiobook. It's everything's right there it's kind of like an mp3 player, which is kind of a fun technology for, for as a little bit like, I would say almost vintage a little bit.
 
Melissa Baumann  8:37  
Yes.
 
Stephie Luyt  8:38  
It's kind of like a Walkman. That's not for the middle school kids to know what I'm talking about. But East in particular has a really large collection of PlayAways, which have been very popular with students. I think our students would be pleasantly surprised to find all of the extra activities that happen through the library. I know that the book clubs have been really popular. Lots of contests and reading motivation and the author visit. I mean there's, they would be surprised by all the activities that, and would fit different niches, and kinda like some maker activities, puzzles, all sorts of things that you can, you can explore in the libraries. 
 
Melissa Baumann  9:16  
Yeah, East Middle School, last year, purchased a button maker. So on Wednesday, students can come down to the library in the Maker Space area and create buttons. They're 50 cents each, but that's been extremely popular. The book groups, at West we call it a book group at East we call it a book club. But those have been extremely popular. So much so that this year at East we have to have three separate groups rather than just one that we had last year. So we're going to do those by grade level. And at West, I've already had quite a few entries, especially since I was advertising the Book, Book Group during the orientation, so many students signed up while they were in the library, and I feel that that's going to be extremely popular as well. 
 
Stephie Luyt  9:58  
I have peeked at some of those Book Group titles and they are some amazing books that were selected for those groups and it's pretty exciting. I have a question and it's kind of a just from like looking at your side of the day. Is there a typical day for you, at all?
 
Melissa Baumann  10:15  
I haven't found it
 
Stephie Luyt  10:16  
I didn't think so, no two days are the same, right? 
 
Melissa Baumann  10:19  
No, in fact, not at all. Maybe a little bit these past couple weeks because I've really been focusing on the orientations with the sixth graders but other than that, I would say no. I'm in the classroom a lot doing presentations on the databases. I'm doing book talks in the library for classes that come down that complement the unit that they're working on in their ELA class. I'm working on behind the scene projects like the web page and Overdrive. So, I, I pretty much just am doing whatever I need to do on a daily basis to tackle about 20 different things. 
 
Larry Burden  10:53  
How do we or do we tie what happens in the media center to the classroom. And I'm guessing the database, the databases are that answer. So how does that communication take place? 
 
Melissa Baumann  11:04  
Well, prior to last year, nobody really was using the databases because they weren't aware that they were available to them so.
 
Larry Burden  11:11  
That's a problem.
 
Melissa Baumann  11:12  
That's a problem. That's why I wanted to make sure that we knew what resources were available and we had an easy place for them to be, all be stored. So now that the, most of the teachers are aware, because I spent a lot of time in the history classes last year, the language arts classes, some of the sixth and seventh grade social studies classes. So I think that now there's just this general awareness of the database and people are hungry for it. So I spent a lot of time in the classroom because showing the students the tools that are available when they use the research database. And they are extremely slick, they're awesome. I mean they align with our Google Drive, they can take notes right in the database, they can highlight, they can send things directly to their Google Drive. So I think that most have been extremely impressed with how easy it makes the research process. And it's all vetted materials so students don't have to take those necessary steps when they're just doing a search online to prove the authenticity, check the author's credentials, and, which are steps that they're unfortunately not taking on their own. So I feel they are extremely happy to have somebody doing that job for them.
 
Stephie Luyt  12:20  
And then, and also you mentioned but integrating what choice books the kids are reading in alignment with their units for ELA. 
 
Melissa Baumann  12:27  
Right, 
 
Stephie Luyt  12:27  
So when they're making a choice book selection there's options that are given that have similar themes that complement what they're learning in ELA. So ELA is a main focus and, in terms of working with the library, but getting into all the other subject areas as well through the databases and through research projects that the kids are working on. 
 
Larry Burden  12:45  
So is the database available, just within the TCAPS network or does it kind of go with you with your Chromebook. 
 
Melissa Baumann  12:53  
Actually it's available. Two of the databases are funded by the district, and then I made the decision last year to purchase one specifically for the two middle school sites. And that one is called Research and Context, and it is designed for middle school students. So all of the content is very age appropriate, and the topics go along with the curriculum that is generally studied in the middle schools. So there's people, cultures, government, history, literature. It's just, there's a wide variety. 
 
Larry Burden  13:22  
We've talked about this on many of the EdTech Loop podcasts in the past and BiblioTech as well, curation is so important because when you have all that information out there, it's really is overwhelming. And as we were mentioning earlier in the open, middle school students don't need to be more overwhelmed. They're plenty, they're plenty overwhelmed so... 
 
Melissa Baumann  13:42  
Totally agree. 
 
Larry Burden  13:43  
To have a database that's, that sounds super user friendly and you guys have vetted it well. That's got it, just make their lives a little bit easier. 
 
Stephie Luyt  13:53  
It's a fabulous research...
 
Melissa Baumann  13:54  
You know I'd like to think that they know how, how wonderful of a gift it is but I don't think they really remember like doing the stacks of note cards where you had to put the author, and highlight, and organize them by topic. So unfortunately I just don't think they they realize what a gift it is. 
 
Larry Burden  14:09  
I think, I think it's not only a gift, they don't have that perspective... 
 
Melissa Baumann  14:13  
Right.
 
Larry Burden  14:14  
of that. But going into the online environment, and just doing research there where you have so much information and to not have some level of curation and vetting before you step into it, it stops people's research there, or their research is just poor because...
 
Melissa Baumann  14:32  
Right 
 
Larry Burden  14:32  
You know, they're going to sites that have maybe less than credible information. It really can send somebody down the wrong path. 
 
Melissa Baumann  14:39  
Right. 
 
Larry Burden  14:40  
Or stop them immediately to have some vetted research and curated research for them, where they can go and just kind of do a one stop shop, really simplifies that process. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:52  
Absolutely.
 
Stephie Luyt  14:52  
It takes out that whole element of, the need to doing all those steps, that making sure that the information is valid, and... 
 
Melissa Baumann  15:00  
I think the students are surprised, because one of my slides in my presentation is showing them the checklist of what they're supposed to be doing if they're going to do research just doing a Google search. And they're surprised to see how many steps they're supposed to be taking. And they fully admit, "I never do this, I never do this," and I, my follow-up is, okay, if you're not going to do that then, in order to be somebody who is doing good research, you need to rely on the database. 
 
Stephie Luyt  15:26  
You know, just being able to even know to access the database and to select the database so it's a good fit for your research and having those available to our kids. Like it's just setting them up for those research skills moving into high school, and then into college. And, and, and accessing the database which is so user friendly, but being able to access those tools so you're not having to do all of the, by hand making out, in writing out the way the resource needs to be cited and all of that. Like it, it really simplifies the process. 
 
Larry Burden  15:55  
Almost feel like we should have a different name the database for Middle School students. We're like, database, database, middle school kids going... 
 
Stephie Luyt  16:03  
Super Cool Research Tool. 
 
Melissa Baumann  16:04  
Yes, that looks like some of my students in my presentation. I can't say it's the most lively presentation to talk databases with middle school students, but I try to throw in some jokes when I can. 
 
Larry Burden  16:14  
I like the Super Cool Research Tool. Can we find some alliteration in there.
 
Melissa Baumann  16:18  
I'll try and work that into my next one. 
 
Larry Burden  16:21  
The other aspect of this, the other partner in this, is the parent, is the parents. Do they have access to that, that slide show? Are we sharing that information? So when the student actually does get home with their Chromebook, again, because that's the great thing about these, these tools, is they can bring it home. If the parent isn't there to prompt, necessarily, those students, that's that's a partner that we were missing. So, are we communicating with them on the database on the Super Cool Research Tool.
 
Melissa Baumann  16:53  
I think at this point, Most of the students would probably have that responsibility simply because they would be able to show their parents through the cloud, how they access those. I know that when I do the presentation, I'm always clear with the students that they can access this off site, they do not need to be on a TCAPS property. They might be prompted with a password, but it's clearly stated what that password is. And hopefully that their teachers are requiring them to do the research outside of school as well. And the parents would then come in contact with it. I don't think that we're necessarily putting anything out there directly to the parents at this time. But that would be a great, a great way to move in that direction. 
 
Stephie Luyt  17:31  
Share all of that with what's you know, all the resources and all the libraries.
 
Melissa Baumann  17:34  
I would assume that their daily updates or their weekly update communication with parents might include, we had a research presentation over the databases this week, and so forth.
 
Stephie Luyt  17:44  
Right, and if you know, if parents are accessing assignments in Powerschool and can see something like that coming up, they may prompt them to ask their student about, you know, what does this entail? And what are you using for research and hopefully, the students will remember that they have this great resource, and they're already using it at home to share.
 
Larry Burden  18:01  
The super cool research tool
 
Melissa Baumann  18:03  
That's the one.
 
Stephie Luyt  18:03  
Yes.
 
Larry Burden  18:03  
I'm patenting that by the way, it's trademarked.
 
Stephie Luyt  18:03  
Trademarked, yes
 
Melissa Baumann  18:07  
Yeah, I'm switching the title on my web page right now.
 
Larry Burden  18:13  
You need like a little character, an avatar.
 
Stephie Luyt  18:17  
I can see it.
 
Melissa Baumann  18:17  
Superhero.
 
Larry Burden  18:17  
I may have gone too far, I apologize.
 
Stephie Luyt  18:17  
My only other question was, I mean, you know, your days are very full and no, two days are the same. But are there any upcoming events or projects or anything that you're excited about or that you want to share?
 
Melissa Baumann  18:29  
Well, we do have the author visit that I mentioned that's taking place on September 30th at East Middle School. We were lucky enough to secure a couple of times in Peter Lerangis's afternoon. So he'll be coming and speaking to two different groups of students. We're going to host that in the library. Students were made aware of books that they could purchase, that they could get signed copies of his work any work, not just the one he's promoting, which will be coming out in October, which is Throwback. So I hope that that communication went out to the families and that students are making those purchases and can actually have a conversation with him when they go to get the book signed, following the presentation. So that's taking place on the 30th. The book clubs are gearing up. We have East Middle School, the preliminary meeting will be this week. And then West, we will be doing our first meeting mid October. We are looking at perhaps Girls Stolen, for the East Middle School selection for eighth grade. And for the selections that's West Middle School, I have to, I have to figure that out yet, because I just need to know what the numbers are to see how many we're going to have and how many copies I can secure, so. 
 
Stephie Luyt  19:40  
I know you have great choices. 
 
Melissa Baumann  19:42  
Yes. Oh, yes, I'm not gonna have any problem selecting a book.
 
Larry Burden  19:45  
Do you have a Tech Tool of the Week?
 
Tech Tool of the Week  19:50  
I would say our Tech Tool of the Week is the, the databases and specifically Research and Context that is Middle School specific and not subject specific. And that can be accessed on the cloud through the tile. And it is a resource for all subject areas in the middle school and very, as Melissa said, Middle School specific. So we'll include the link and more information about the Tech Tool of the Week in the show notes.
 
Larry Burden  20:16  
To close it out. Updates, Latest EdTech Loop podcast was out, I think Wednesday it dropped, on Parent Communication, which is kind of nice, that's why I brought up the parent communication thing.
 
Stephie Luyt  20:28  
Yeah, Perfect. 
 
Larry Burden  20:28  
We're recording a new one On Thursday. And then the TechNollergist has one I think next week as well. David Noller. He also dropped a tutorial on YouTube on the TechNollergist YouTube channel, TCAPS Communication Protocols. So, very district specific if you're interested in how a large district like ours or any small district communicates and manages keep all the craziness under control, we try, there's some good ideas there. So I think everybody use that. In closing Follow us on Facebook, Twitter @TCAPSLoop 
 
Stephie Luyt  21:01  
@StephieLuyt
 
Larry Burden  21:04  
Subscribe to the podcast on Podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, the Google Play Store, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, leave reviews, love the feedback. Exercise your mind, read a book.
 
Melissa Baumann  21:18  
It was fun.
 

EdTech Loop Ep. 89 - Parent Engagement

I'm a parent, you're a parent, we're also in the educational community and have the opportunity to see both sides of parental communication in education. In an effort to avoid a bunch of random notes shoved in the bottom of the students backpack, we want to talk about some ways that we can use technology to make communication better, easier on both ends, that makes sense, and create a partnership in education between the school and the parent.
 
Transcript:
Danelle Brostrom  0:01  
Show Notes, shmoe notes.
 
Larry Burden  0:10  
It is an agent of chaos.
 
Larry Burden  0:12  
I've met agents of chaos.
 
Danelle Brostrom  0:12  
My child is an agent of chaos.
 
Larry Burden  0:25  
It's episode 89 of the EdTechLoop podcast. My name is Larry Burden and she's no longer using semaphore and signal towers, it's Danielle Brostrom. I have unearthed my past elementary school newsletters stuffed in the bottom of various backpacks for this week's moment of Zen. 
 
Moment of Zen  0:40  
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. 
 
Larry Burden  0:47  
We've taken the lid off the hibachi to let the sweet aroma entice our listeners to take a nibble at this week's meat of the show, engaging parents. I'm a parent, you're a parent, we're also in the educational community, we kind of see both sides. What have you noticed? Maybe on the, on the parental side first, as far as using tech to engage our, our partners in education.
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:14  
Yeah, I would like to totally avoid that scenario that you talked about where there's a bunch of random notes shoved in the bottom of the backpack, because that is for real. That is real life, I find those notes the bottom of a backpack and in the bottom of a locker and smashed in the corners of the car. So I really like to avoid that. So I definitely want to talk about some ways that we can use technology to make communication better, easier on both ends and stuff that makes sense. I feel like this is a podcast we do at the beginning of every year. And it's different every time which is good. I think we're evolving. So I'm excited to talk about this today, Larry.
 
Larry Burden  1:49  
You brought this up earlier, I did a little research, which is rare
 
Danelle Brostrom  1:51  
I know.
 
Larry Burden  1:53  
Thankfully, I came up with somebody else who had done even more research and has continued the research, Jessica Meachem, found her on Twitter. And she has a spreadsheet of almost every possible application that you could use to communicate with your parents, and has a list of all the attributes, What were your first reactions?
 
Danelle Brostrom  2:20  
Well, the first thing that I noticed is that I love that she's broken it down by security and privacy issues, because that's a big thing for me. And then she also talks about like the price, The communication that's possible. And, this is a good place for teachers to start. And they can kind of see what works out for them. And we do have a lot of teachers that are using these external services like Remind and Bloomz and Class Tag, there's, there's a lot of them that she's detailed there. My suggestion is to just be careful with these. And here's why. I think about the parents that have four different kids at four different schools. And then The teachers are using four different services. And I think that if you look at it from the perspective of your customer, who is our families, It can be a full time job to keep up with all those messages from school and and the different services and some give you notifications. Like I know were on Bloomz right now and we get notified if anyone comments, which is super annoying at sign up for parent teacher conferences time, because I find out that Johnny's mom signed up and then I find out that Jill's mom signed up and you're like, take the notifications off, but now I'm nervous, I'm gonna miss something from school. So just, I, I love a lot of these services, I think they offer some really cool things. But I think what would be pretty cool is if your entire school decided, we're going to communicate with parents in this way. Like I've got one of my schools that everyone is using Bloomz, or, you know, maybe your if your, if your school or your district has adopted something, I think you should use that for just the sake of streamlining things for your customer. With the cool new messaging apps, they might work for you, but just make sure they're working for your families, too. And that is going to add value for them. So if your entire school can get on board and use one thing that would be ideal. And if your district can get on board with using one thing, that would be the best.
 
Larry Burden  4:14  
Speaking of the district, we do have a one thing?
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:18  
Yes, in our district, we do we have Bright Arrow.
 
Larry Burden  4:20  
We have Bright Arrow. And that actually works through Power School. It's not the, maybe not as shiny, as some of the other apps, it does have some of the functionality. For instance, I know Remind, you know, is often used at more secondary schools. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:37  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  4:38  
Specifically, because of its messaging function, it's, you know, it's very available on your iPhone, or your phones and other digital devices. Whereas our Power School solution via Bright Arrow does a pretty good job from what I've gathered for our parents, but also for our, our teachers as far as having it within their 
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:02  
grading interface. 
 
Larry Burden  5:03  
The grading interface they're already using. They're already there.
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:05  
Yeah. It's interesting that you say that it is within Power School is only within Power School on the teacher end, on the parents and it comes right through their email. So that's, that's a really nice feature. I think email is the number one way teachers are communicating with families, whether they're using Bright Arrow or whether they're gathering parent contact emails, doing a distribution list. Parents, most of them are on email. So that seems to be something that's making sense for a lot of teachers. But the biggest thing I would want to say there is making sure that you're using BCC for families. If you just send it out blanket and you, you know, update everyone on your classroom news, that's awesome, because you should be keeping your families engaged. But if you put all of those addresses in the "to" line, then, you know, Julie replies with the question and says, Hey, I'm just wondering, did you see our backpack and then everyone on that list is getting it every single time. But if you put that in the BCC, and it's a blind carbon copy, as a parent, I can't see any of the other emails that are on the list. I can't see who else she sent, he or she or he is sending it to. And it just really, really cuts down on that reply all grossness. So
 
Larry Burden  6:13  
answer to this, if you will, Yeah. When you do hit that send to all in Power School, how it does that automatically do will BCC. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:24  
Yes
 
Larry Burden  6:24  
Okay, so for the most part, if you're going through your Power School, the likelihood of that bad thing happening is considerably reduced.
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:33  
 Correct, Correct.
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:34  
And then other ways I was thinking about when we were talking about how to use tech to better engage families, I love the Google Classroom. Google Classroom has that built in progress report feature that will email families a daily or weekly summary of their kids work. I love that because it keeps parents involved if they want to be. Then the nice thing is, once you enter the parents email, You don't have to do a thing. Everything is automated. The bad thing is that you, you can't customize the report in any way. But it's ready to go every, every time that they get that subscription. So I really do like those Guardian Summaries in Google Classroom, I think those are solid.
 
Larry Burden  7:10  
One of the nice things about both Google Classroom and Bright Arrow is, every teacher in our district has it. One of the things you mentioned earlier that we do want to try to avoid, and we might think that some of these extraneous apps, some of these extra apps are really cool and flashy and look great. But if you have three kids in the district, and each one of those teachers that has a different app that they're using, suddenly, that's a lot to manage as a parent, whereas every teacher has access to Google Classroom, and might be likely using it. Every teacher has access to Power School. It really limits the amount of interactions that the parent has to maintain. I would assume the likelihood of having interaction with the parent is increased if they're not having to try to manage, manage multiple avenues of communication. And really, the goal of the parent communication is not necessarily, we would hope, the one way communication. We want to create a partner in this communication in the education of their child. We need to have the feedback.
 
Danelle Brostrom  8:24  
Yeah, 100%. And, you know, you talk about feedback. And it's funny, because I just said, you know, you should use form the ones that your district has put their support behind it, because it makes it easier for families. But I gotta mention Larry, one that I love, I do love Seesaw. We have so many elementary teachers using it that I feel like it's, it's almost become one that we support. I love that parents can see and they can comment on their students work, no matter where they are. I love that there's a place for classroom news, too. And I like it's all in one place. And it does, it does more than one thing. It's like, the Alton Brown thing where he says that you should never buy kitchen gadget unless it can be used for more than one thing. Seesaw is kind of like that for me, because it's got the student portion where they're creating their own portfolio and turning in their work and you're communicating with them. And then it's got this parent portion where you can see your child's work. And you can see, you can comment on it. And you can give them feedback. And then there's this other portion where the teacher can put classroom news and calendars and it's all connected into one app. I do like that, because then it's not just a messaging. It's not just this, it's kind of everything all in one package. So that, that is one that I really do like, that's an external service.
 
Larry Burden  9:38  
What, why do you support Seesaw over some of the other ones that we...
 
Danelle Brostrom  9:41  
Just because it offers all those pieces, when I go there, as a parent, I'm not just signing up for conferences, or just receiving that one way communication from the teacher. It's all of these other pieces. It's almost like, where the Google Classroom, I can see what my child is doing in class, I can see that too. It just feels like there's more there, it covers all those different areas, for me, as a parent.
 
Larry Burden  10:04  
If you're listening outside of our district, recognize what your, your tech coaches, your Technology Department is aware of, and good at servicing. So if you have a large community of Seesaw users or Bloomz users might not be a bad way to go. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:28  
Because people will help you.
 
Larry Burden  10:28  
Because of the support, as opposed to tracking out on your own. And then suddenly, when it's not working, or it's not doesn't have the functionality that you'd like, you have nobody to ask. So it kind of be aware of your environment and make sure that the people that, that would otherwise support you with the technology can support you, when you go off and use one of these tools. Parent communication is so important for the student, you know, the interaction to have, make sure that the parent is understanding where their student is at and that they're involved in their education is so important, we really do want to get it right. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:03  
Yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  11:04  
and not make it overwhelming for the parent, cuz that's going to end up turning the parent off.
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:08  
And it's hard to look at it from that lens. You know, as a teacher, you're trying to be super efficient with your time and you're trying to do as best for your students. But to take that step back and say, if, if I were a parent in my classroom, what, what would this communication look like? And how can I improve it? Or if I, if I were a parent in the district, and we're getting all these different requests from different services, what would that look like to me. So kind of trying to really think of your customer, and what what they would want and what their needs are. And like, I like to think about, we've got some teachers that are still doing class websites, and having a web presence. And I think you should, I think that's great, I think there's a lot of value in there. But I don't think that can be the only place to communicate with families, your stuff is going to get missed if you just throw it up on the website, and then assume parents are going to go there and they have questions. They're probably not. They're probably not going to go there every Friday to see if you posted anything new. You really need to go to them instead of expecting them to come to you.
 
Larry Burden  12:07  
The next stage or the next step on this. And where the parent communication really becomes powerful, is again, when we're allowing that communication to come back. And we're really become partners. It's also where things get messy, because sometimes it's a little bit hard when a parent gets all up in your business about what your doing. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  12:28  
Yeah, for sure. 
 
Larry Burden  12:30  
But I was, I was reading some research actually on this. And one of the studies had kind of three takeaways. One, obviously, that the emphasis on relationship building among parents and students is very important, Two, a focus on leadership development of parents really making our parents leaders in the education of their children. And three, I thought was the interesting one, and effort to bridge the gap and culture of, and power, between parents and educators. We contrast this community based approach with a more traditional school centric, individualistic, individualistic approach to parent involvement. The paradigm typically has been school to parent, we're on the mountaintop, and we're, we're preaching down to the parent. If we're expecting the parent to become a willing participant in their child's education. Broadly, I mean, there's always going to be parents that do that. But oftentimes, those parents are actually, you know, feeling as though they're speaking on equal terms with the educator.
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:34  
I definitely think a phone call is always always the best, you know. That's something that they drill into you as a new teacher, that you should be making these positive phone calls home to and I definitely agree with that. Like, Hey, your kids is a great thing today. I just want to tell you about that. Because anytime you can build that relationship and put it more on that evil play, evil playing field? level, I know. Whoa.
 
Larry Burden  13:55  
Agent of Chaos.
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:57  
Fixer of the agent of chaos,
 
Larry Burden  13:59  
We are, We are working into mid, mid season form.
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:03  
Working into.
 
Larry Burden  14:03  
We did not have a preseason. This year, there's no preseason, which just jumped right in.
 
Larry Burden  14:07  
All right. Um, anything else that you'd like to add?
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:09  
Yeah, um, the only other things that I want to add. Just whatever you use, I think being consistent. So trying to be regular with your communication, using the same service. Consistency is important. Being brief, there's so much that parents have to keep on top of. So the, don't waste your time with things like graphics or cute little things unless they add value. I think really just being brief with your communication is important. And then I think, use this to write the story of your classroom. Parents don't know what's going on every day. Sometimes the kids don't give them all the cool things that you're doing. Just use your communication to write the story of your classroom, consider pictures to. Parents love to see their kids little face learning. I just think the more you can use that tech to tell your story, the better.
 
Larry Burden  14:56  
I know Bloomz user and posts a number of pictures. And that's the way that she's been able to get great interaction from her parents. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:04  
Not just Elementary, I think Secondary to. Like, you should show pictures of secondary kids doing cool stuff in the classroom.
 
Larry Burden  15:13  
All right, Tech Tool of the Week.
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:18  
Tech Tool of the Week, I want to share Flippity. Lissa Brunan, she presented for us at Wired, and she shared some stuff on some stuff on Flippity, and it was fantastic. Flippity is a great resource for teachers. It turns a Google spreadsheet into all kinds of cool stuff. You can turn it into a random name picker or a quiz show or flashcards or a timeline or a badge tracker. If you want to track your kids, or let them earn badges. My favorite is you can turn it into a progress indicator. So it turns your Google Spreadsheet into progress indicator bars, you can use it for a tournament bracket a matching game. It's just some really really cool ways to increase your students interactivity with this device and Flippity is phenomenal. I tried one the other day and was amazed at how quickly I was able to take the spreadsheet that they created, follow the directions, change the words and then publish that link. And then when I went to that link, it was all of a sudden a typing speed tester with content that I had put in so, Wow, flippity.net that is my Tech Tool of the Week. 
 
Larry Burden  16:25  
Great Tech Tool
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:25  
Yeah, it's great.
 
Larry Burden  16:26  
 That one's been around for a little bit. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:27  
I know 
 
Larry Burden  16:28  
but a lot of teachers love it.
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:29  
but we haven't used it enough. I don't think there's so many cool things on here.
 
Larry Burden  16:34  
Tutorials and updates. The TechNollerGist has a Google Classroom Rubric Template. I haven't actually watched this one yet. So I don't know. I will be honest. I saw it out there like oh, this is a new one. I did not have time to check it out. I guarantee it's awesome because the TechNollerGist just made it. And also there was a really cool tweet that um, to an article actually it was the article that was cool. By A.J. Giuliani and I'm guessing you follow him? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:58  
Yes, I do. 
 
Larry Burden  16:59  
He's all over Twitter. But it's, "Empathy as the Most Important 21st Century Skill.” And I don't know if you've read the article. It is great. It is great. So I highly recommend taking the time and 
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:13  
Will do.
 
Larry Burden  17:13  
Doing some reading so. AJGiuliani.com backslash empathy, the most important 21st Century Skills where the article is you'll find it on the many social medias as well. Before the building actually falls down I will  close with, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @tcapsloop, @brostromda, subscribe to the podcast on podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store and Spotify leave review. We love the feedback. Thanks for listening and inspiring.
 
Larry Burden  17:47  
Drama, you didn;t like the drama?
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:50  
I really did think the building was going to fall for a minute.
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
 

EdTech Loop Ep. 88 - We Gave Your Kid a Device...Now What?

Episode 88 of the EdTechLoop Weekly Podcast! After having our fill of caprese salads and grilled vegetarian kebabs it's finally time to whip up some #GoogleEdu marinade and slather it on this week's meat of the show, “We gave your kid a device...now what?”
Additional Links:
Parenting in the Digital Age Presentation
Parents - you can set limits and take the device away
Filter that home network
Screentime Rules From A Teacher
Guide to Parental Controls
 
Episode 88 Transcription:
Stephie Luyt  0:00  
Hey, they still have dot matrix printers over there.
 
David Noller  0:05  
Yes, they still have modems
 
Larry Burden  0:15  
Should I be recording, hold on.
 
Stephie Luyt  0:15  
You didn't save the day for them. 
 
David Noller  0:16  
I had a legitimate moral dilemma. 
 
Larry Burden  0:19  
I am recording by the way and you need to settle down.
 
Larry Burden  0:28  
it's Episode 88 of the EDtechLoop podcast My name is Larry Burden and ignoring the fire marshals maximum occupancy warnings. It's Danielle Brostrom, Stephie Luyt, and the TechNollerGist, David Noller. We've packed up the beach towels and the sunscreen in favor of backpacks, Chromebooks, and this week's moment of Zen. 
 
Moment of Zen  0:47  
What is art? It is when you have paper, and you don't know why it's paper. 
 
Larry Burden  0:54  
Thank you from one of the students from my wife's toddler classroom for that one. 
 
David Noller  1:00  
It's when you have paper, 
 
Larry Burden  1:01  
and you don't know why, 
 
David Noller  1:03  
and you don't know why 
 
Larry Burden  1:03  
it's paper 
 
David Noller  1:04  
it's paper. Yeah, I gotta go.
 
David Noller  1:09  
That, I want to think about that more than anything else right now.
 
Larry Burden  1:12  
 I know, she said that this morning and I was like, yeah I need that.
 
Larry Burden  1:19  
We've lost the TechNollergist, after having our fill of caprese salads and grilled vegetarian kebabs it's finally time to whip up some Google Edu marinate and slather it on this week's meat of the show, we gave our kid a device...Now what. I love this topic and I think it's the perfect way to start the first pod of the year. Because really, we tend to focus on all these different things we can do with the device, the goals that we're trying to reach with the device. Let's, Let's start at the beginning, we've given them. This tool. Now, let's start looking at those transitional properties of what do you do with it to get to the goal. So what do you do, what do you supposed to do with the tool to reach your goal. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  2:01  
And I think this is where it becomes kind of becomes a thing because in our district we do give kids a device in sixth grade, and they get to take it home, and it's, it's, it's theirs to manage and the parents job to manage and I think that this is a great podcast for parents because we do need to give them some advice on what they can do to help manage this new media that's going to be in their home.
 
Larry Burden  2:26  
On Twitter. We had two comments, two comments that came through when I asked this question, and I thought they framed it in the two in two ways that maybe we should look at the first comment from and I'm gonna get his name wrong and he's all over Twitter, he's great follow Anthony Locricchio, maybe, I don't know, I apologize, his comment, it's a learning tool, and it's yours, so treated as if it's the last one in the world. I think that's a great way to look at it because it is it's a it's a tool it's one of the things we're trying to focus on this year. But, B, it is access to everything, and how important is that, as an educational tool if they know how, if they have the foundational skills to use it appropriately. The other one was from Danielle Brostrom, practice balance every day, shut the device down once in a while, and look your friends in the eye. I think that's great and really it comes down to thinking about those two, two comments. First one, what can it do? second comment. What should it not do? We're giving them this tool. What can it do?
 
Danelle Brostrom  3:34  
I think the first thing that parents do need to know is that all the Chromebooks that we send home are filtered. Schools are required by SEPA to filter, we filter all school loaned devices so they should be not able to access content that's inappropriate. I know that's a lot of parents concern, but I still think you should set up your home network and filters to do some filtering, on top of that. But, um, but we do have some filtering within so it is, it is open but how do you teach kids to use it for good and not evil I guess that's, that's another part of it. 
 
Stephie Luyt  4:07  
And how to kids learn that, like they, they're in charge of the device. The device is not in charge of them so that balance idea, how do they learn the skills and adults need those skills to making sure that you're not letting the distractions get to be too much and that you're limiting yourself on real life time and time on a device. 
 
David Noller  4:28  
So one of the things that we have thought about at home is that the device, whether it's the Chromebook that we give them or the smartphone. It all fits within and under the same umbrella family values so if something is something that we believe in for reading books or watching movies. The same is true of smart devices and computers. If having them access. something would, would go against what we think is right and good and just and true, it's that way, on, on a mobile device or on a Chromebook, as much as it is, anything else. So, I think, it was important for us to have that conversation early about what would mom or dad expect. And when I'm in the classroom and kids have choice reads where they get to pick a novel or pick a short story to read. I always have a line about, make sure that you're selecting something that fits your, your family's set of values. So that whoever you are responsible to will be okay with your choice. 
 
Larry Burden  5:35  
When they get the device and they bring the device home.That is the time to have that conversation. 
 
David Noller  5:41  
Sure, to have that intentional conversation about where does this fit within the context of everything else that makes up the family values and the family expectations.
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:51  
100% and I think the biggest thing that I would want parents to know too is that they can always take that device away. The school, gave it to you yes, so that your child could do homework and research and do other educational things, but you are, as a parent, you are in charge of what happens in the home. You want to take it away,  take it away if you feel like the amount of time that they're spending on it is too much, have a conversation with that child's teacher and see if the amount of time they're spending on is appropriate to the amount of homework that they're getting and blah blah blah but just as a parent parents sometimes don't they just need that permission to know that they can take that device away. 
 
Larry Burden  6:29  
We're kind of discussing specifically Chromebooks, but I think this is applicable to anytime you're introducing a digital device to a child. For us to presume that the first device that the child is getting is our Chromebook. I think would be disingenuous, or at least or at least. Yeah. So let's hope that the parent has already had that discussion with the child when they got their phone or they got their iPad or whatever device that they, you know, were first introduced to. What specifically about a TCAPS Chromebook, should they be discussing or doing. First thing, first thing that a parent should do when that 
 
David Noller  7:11  
After we've already had that discussion of values and all that from previous devices. You know you made a comment earlier about how you know treat this like it's an educational tool and it's the last one on earth, and I think that speaks back to the idea that, they're not ever going to think that way because they already have one probably in their hand. The current the smartphone or the tablet or whatever. They've been using those devices a long time and so I'm thinking about it from the instructional point of view about the management of the device as a learning tool. The first thing I did when my kids brought their son was charge it. Find a place every day that you're going to charge that thing and charges every night you're responsible for that. It's like taking care of a puppy. He give them the jobs that they have to do, and they have to do them every night, because if they don't, the puppy cries. We don't want the puppy to cry. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  8:00  
They don't charge the device the teacher cries. 
 
David Noller  8:03  
Well, again, you know, I've come from the high school perspective. And I kind of have this line about if you come with an uncharged device that's a you problem. That's one I'm not really probably going to solve for you. That's one that you're going to figure out how to navigate through that on your own. Now I'll help kids when they absolutely need it. But I like them to think of that as a responsibility that they have and if they create a roadblock for themselves they get to figure out the bridge to get over it, so. 
 
Stephie Luyt  8:36  
It is a device that is different from what they have at home, most likely because it has this extra layer of it's coming from school and it's being given to them to complete homework. And I think that is an extra discussion point for parents, and I think parents do sometimes feel like, okay the school gave this to them, I have less control over it as a device. But it's the same, it's, it's a device in the home and it has all these educational applications but there's also lots of distractions of course. So I think parents have to feel empowered that it's okay to manage it and help your child get those, you know, even the logistical steps in place of taking care of it like a device but also still has the power to...it still needs to be harnessed. And it, it's the parents still have that ultimate, that control over the device, even though it's coming from school. 
 
David Noller  9:33  
I wonder about the, the distractibility. We know that, you know, distractions are a click away. But, you know, I grew up with, with friends and and other people who: their note taking guide became a place to doodle on. You know, their, their book even became a place to draw pictures in, or whatever, and, and so the depth of distractibility is certainly increased because of the interactive nature of what they can access or videos or things that they can really sink themselves into. But in terms of the device itself being the main cause of that, I think it's more like the habits of the kids. And often what we see, is the kids that are, that tend towards distraction whether they have a device in front of them, or a blank sheet of paper, they're going to find a way to do something other than what they're supposed to. Whether it's watching YouTube, or writing their name and then outlining it in 95 different colors with magic markers or colored pencils.
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:33  
Haven't we all done that, though. I mean, haven't we all started watching. 
 
David Noller  10:37  
Yes, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:38  
Something that made sense to what you were doing and then eight YouTube videos later.
 
David Noller  10:44  
Uh-Huh, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  10:44  
We're watching videos and and yes I've done the same thing with doodling and then realize I missed half of the lecture. So how, I do think it's just important to be honest with kids about that that, hey, this happens to all of us when the tech is set up to keep us hooked and keep us down this rabbit hole. 
 
David Noller  11:04  
And I think it's important you said something about being honest and telling them that. To let them know, Look, I get caught down the rabbit hole to, once you recognize you're there, look for the light.
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:14  
It's a meditation thing isn's it Larry?
 
Larry Burden  11:16  
I was thinking that same thing, this is, this is mindfulness practice is really what we're talking about as far as this topics topics is concerned, and that there are kind of anti distraction tools out there I know there are different apps on phones to help, you know keep you on task. Timers that you can do. When a child is invested, if they're invested in what they're doing, they're going to be much less likely to want to be distracted. Now they're going to get distracted as we've all said. You wanted, you wanted to watch that the TED talk or, you know, a conference or whatever and you get distracted. It's if they're invested, they're going to be much more likely to recognize when they're distracted and then want to do something about it. So with that being said, What can we do as far as making the tool that it is, something that engages them. Okay, you have this device. Let's assume we're safe on it. Now what? 
 
David Noller  12:16  
Now I'm thinking of this from the teachers perspective. 
 
Larry Burden  12:19  
That's perfect. 
 
David Noller  12:20  
Okay, so I give my kids. Short deadlines like you have five minutes to do the following. If three minutes to do the following. I rarely give them something where they're on their device that takes longer than five to seven minutes. Because, and I, what I'll do with that is ask them some sort of interesting engaging question, at least I hope it is, right? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  12:44  
Yes, it is. 
 
David Noller  12:45  
And creative writing I'll give them a prompt that hopefully they've never thought of before, and I'll allow them to write for five to seven minutes, and then I give myself permission to cut them off. Who's still writing? Oh, you are okay, We'll wait. I give myself permission to cut these kids off to try to give them used to the sense of urgency when it comes to thinking and writing. So I think, asking interesting questions, providing short deadlines where there's no time to be distracted because if I give you three minutes. You're going to need all of it, for that question. And if you get done early. What are you going to do for 30 seconds that's going to get you down the rabbit hole. So that's one thing is that intentional planning with short deadlines. The other thing is that when I give them activities that take longer time. It's something kind of complex, or something where they're, they're doing the designing of the learning as they do it. So giving them lots of options in terms of what they're going to kind of collect as a resource, as they create the thing that they're, they're, they're doing. 
 
Larry Burden  13:51  
The exploration is built into the... 
 
David Noller  13:53  
It is, and it's guided so that it's not just go find, but it's, here's a set of resources, start here. So I've pre loaded a little bit with things that I know will work, so they don't get down the Google rabbit hole. But you know, preloaded with some things that work and then say if you've, if you've used these and you've gotten so far but you want to go further, then you can. But, but again, even those are, are steps in a way that. Here's the first task you about 10 minutes. Go. Okay, well let's see we got, okay. You never got there, okay i'll talk to you in just a second. Next thing is about seven minutes, 10 minutes, whatever, find this and do this thing, Go. And I use the expression on the mark, get set, go, a lot in class, because I want them to think of it, not like it's a race, but there's some urgency to the timeline. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:42  
So as a parent when you're at home and you don't have control over the task that the child has to do. You can do the same thing though with a simple kitchen kitchen timer like what we talked about earlier. You know, you, you work for 10 or seven minutes. Go. You're done. Take a break, shut it down, let's go do something else. 
 
David Noller  14:59  
Check in see where they're at. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:01  
Yeah, 
 
David Noller  15:01  
I intentionally structure my classes that way because, as much as we want to say get the kids up and moving around, there's not a ton of ways to do that authentically. It just feels like the amount of time we want to spend them moving will never reach. You know, there's gonna be some time in the seat that they're just gonna have to spend there. But if I can move it along with some energy and have them move, do different thing and different thing and different thing and step it in a way that keeps them interested and motivated. 
 
Stephie Luyt  15:33  
When I'm thinking about myself as a learner because I'm taking grad glasses. And the first time through when I was in school I was not distracted by having phones or having any of this. And so I resorted to using a timer. Like, if, and especially if it's something where I'm just consuming or reading or doing something I'm, not that, because I'm of course very engaged in reading, but if it's something that it might not be the most engaging that I'm working on I do have to set a timer so that I don't end up on my phone signing my kids up for soccer or doing whatever else is scheduling X, Y, or Z. You know, I'm not playing Crossy Road, but you're still distracted by what all those other things and you know when there's something that you're engaged in and you're doing the creation it's easier than being the consumer of the information in a lot of ways. And it's, but I, you know, same thing like I have to manage it in the same way as like little kiddos. 
 
David Noller  16:26  
I'll find, I'll start doing something on a short story and then learn something about an author, and then he was in a war, and then I have to go read up on that, and then oh wait, this was invented during that time, then I have to go read that thing. So I get stuck in those rabbit holes too and I do the same thing I set a timer on my watch. And I've got all these like preset little timers, and if I have a thing that I know I have to get done, I'll set a timer for 15 minutes from now and just let it buzz me. Am I still on track? 
 
Larry Burden  16:51  
It's so prevalent, it's not that any of us are more or less, though we are more or less distractible. 
 
David Noller  16:58  
Me, 
 
Larry Burden  16:58  
But everybody, especially for, for, for adults, I think it's almost more of an issue for adults. And we've talked about this in the past. Really for parents, one of the great things about what you were saying was that, that 10 minute period is then you're paying your attention to your kid every 10 minutes, which isn't necessarily happening and because, guess what, you're down the internet rabbit hole, you know, as well. 
 
David Noller  17:26  
There's so many things that, that our, that our adult lives are full with, but with the kids, their's to. It's not all necessarily YouTube and, and Instagram, it might be, you know, texting with their friend because they had a bad day and you're the one that's supposed to provide them comfort. I had to deal with that last year, there's so many things in their lives that are important to them that are part of that set of distractions, that I think we have to recognize that and give them a little bit of space to be able to encounter those things, like we do. But then teach them how to take a break from them and lets get done what we need to. 
 
Larry Burden  18:03  
Having that conversation early, having that when you introduce that digital device. Prior to them maybe becoming a little jaded, or already being down that rabbit hole, having that conversation. This will, it's not a question of, it might, this will be a distraction. Here are some tools. 
 
David Noller  18:20  
We always set a timer for our kids when they were in elementary school for their homework. And it was like 30 minutes. We just set the timer on the microwave and would have worked for 30 minutes and when the timer went off they could do whatever they wanted. We always did it in chunks like that. I didn't really think about that because it's been many, many years since they were in elementary school. That was the thing we did for our own kids just to give them a work time and then I go be a kid time, and then come back and finish your work time, and then you'll be a kid again. 
 
Stephie Luyt  18:49  
And that involves some hands on on your part, and I think really the best way to model and help kids to do that is to be hands on with them and, and, and manage you know okay, you're going to be on this, you're going to work on this for this amount of time and I'll check back with you. Unfortunately there is no easy way to set them up with the perfect, there's no perfect app that will do all that for you. And I think the perfect app is the parent or the caregiver who's involved in, and helping monitor, helping monitor and model. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  19:20  
That's what I was thinking too, is that parents too, I mean and me too, man. I'm working and trying to keep the house up and everything that has to be done when you're an adult, and managing your kids time on this device is a pain, and it's complicated and it's tricky and oh my gosh I just want to push a button and have it done for me because I don't have time to deal with it I mean that's the reality. But you have to do it. This isn't like something that you can opt out of really because the media will parent for you if you don't. This is something that you really have to do. And I think just the, I think we need to know too that everyone's kind of going through it together, you're not alone.
 
Larry Burden  20:01  
We're definitely talking about the same thing, we're all on the same rabbit hole so it's, it's, it's good. But we're talking about attention, really recognizing that attention on a task is what we're trying to get our students to be able to maintain. One of the neat things that David had said was pre device, building some, some skills. I think that's a really interesting way to look at this is there are, there are a lot of digital skills that can be pre built before they get the device. And having some mental discipline regarding attention before they get the device, you know, early, when they're when they're maybe a little more moldable, maybe not in eighth grade, turns out, might be good. It's not giving them the device, it's recognizing that they are going to be living in a digital world. There are some skills that we can develop before they get the device that would be really useful. So that when you hand it to them they're prepared. What would those skills be? just dropping that one, boom. 
 
David Noller  21:10  
Sure, 
 
Larry Burden  21:10  
go get 'em. 
 
Stephie Luyt  21:11  
Well, recognizing when they've gotten off task and having, having an idea of, Okay, how do I get myself back on task and it was it done I do need to set a timer, or I need to switch to a different activity that's away from whatever I've been distracted by. I think, I mean, to label okay right now I'm off task. Now what and have a plan. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  21:32  
I think working with your children and your family and being present, being focused on who you're with, when you're with them. Focused on, it's the same idea just really focusing on the idea of being present and not being distracted by 18 different things. 
 
Larry Burden  21:49  
We're getting right around that time for sure. I wanted to talk about when we had that device over to one of our students, what does that mean for staff? What responsibilities they have once they've given that tool to a student? 
 
David Noller  22:05  
I think it changes how you interact with students, and how you plan, and how you design your lesson. Because if you're not intentionally using the tool. Then you're just sort of randomly, hoping that whatever you're going to do works. You wouldn't come into a classroom and hand a kid a textbook and say, find some neat information that you want to report out. You'd build in some structure to that. You'd build in some parameters. You would give them a certain amount of time to get it done. You would suggest a manner in which they could report out. You would plan intentionally with your tools in mind. The devices shouldn't just be another way to fill out a worksheet. So I think one of the things is that we want teachers to think about intentionally planning, so that they know that they're about to hand their kid a task that's going to have them on this device for X amount of minutes. Are you okay with that? Can your kids handle that? Are they ready for that experience? And I think if they can ask those, themselves, those questions, and say yes to those, then okay, we're ready to go. If there's any trepidation then maybe we need to be a little bit more intentional about that planning and what it is we actually expect to happen once we engage the kids with that device. My other thing for teachers is this. It's okay, like you say, to take the device away. Get used to saying lids down place, or however you want to say that. And it's, it's not optional. This is a time when our lids are closed. I do it all the time. I use my devices with my kids all the time. And they, they know that when I say lids down they go down, then they come back up and Chromebooks are so fast in terms of starting and stopping and starting, and that's okay. But if you forget to say lids down, that's and the kid gets off task and that's when teachers get upset, well there's such a distraction. 
 
Stephie Luyt  24:02  
And I think if, if parents touch base and say, my kids spending X amount of time on this device, you know, all night. What, to be able to communicate what your expectations were with the tools that they can help gauge like okay they are way out of bounds for these reasons. You know, this is what the teacher is looking for. And, and be mindful of what the kids are getting from for our secondary from all their other classes? You know, what, what is a reasonable expectation for amount of use on this device. And do they have to, you know, what's that big picture going to look like? And for parents to understand and like all of our teachers are, are thinking through those ideas and how to communicate those if a parent asks. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  24:43  
In the classroom first half, I would just remind teachers that you don't have to use them. You know, goes back to the whole, Liz Kolb stuff, use it when it makes sense if it doesn't make sense just because the kids have them, doesn't mean they have to use them. They can pick up a real book. That's good for them. 
 
David Noller  24:57  
Sure. I have a metaphor I use pretty regularly. Where there's the movie, "Uncle Buck." And he's making pancakes. And normally, we use a spatula to make pancakes and you flip them over. So if you're going to use a spatula for pancakes, that's fine. If you need a snow shovel, because your Uncle Buck making it three foot wide pancake. Use a snow shovel. But if you're making little six inch pancakes like you normally would, snow shovels too much. So use the whatever tool makes sense for the tasks that you're trying to do. If it's a book and paper, use a book and paper, if it's the internet and Chromebooks, then grab the snow shovel. 
 
Larry Burden  25:40  
It's interesting, technology is no longer cool. 
 
David Noller  25:45  
Right, 
 
Stephie Luyt  25:46  
It's neutral, it just is. 
 
Larry Burden  25:46  
It's neutral, what you can do with technology as a tool can be cool. 
 
David Noller  25:53  
For these kids the Internet has always existed. 
 
Larry Burden  25:56  
Times be changing. Anything else, there's there's I mean, there's a ton more we're just out of time so. 
 
Stephie Luyt  26:01  
I think there's a lot more to talk about. To be continued. 
 
Larry Burden  26:04  
All right. Hey, Do we have a tech tool of the week?
 
Tech Tool of the Week  26:09  
REMC has this amazing course called, "21 Things for Students," and it is something that teachers can use in the classroom but I even think that this specific lesson is beneficial for parents. They just released a new quest five called, "Balancing My Media," and I love this especially in light of our discussion today because it has some great video resources, some great vocabulary, some great graphic organizers to help kids kind of organize their thoughts about their digital media balance, and there's just a lot here to help families and kids learn about how Tech has hooked and how we can try to break that. And I just think there's a lot here so I'll share that in the show notes. 
 
Larry Burden  26:50  
Tutorials and updates, not a whole lot. I did see a Chromebook Care and Management tutorial from from the TechNollerGist on YouTube so we'll definitely have that in the show notes. Just wanted to point out again it's, we have a we're hosted on a new site, podbean, podbean is the new podcast hoster so. You can find us now pretty much everywhere, and the podcast, podcast will now be transcribed so you can read the podcast. So very exciting there. In closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:21  
@brostromda, 
 
David Noller  27:22  
@TechNollerGist, 
 
Stephie Luyt  27:24  
@StephieLuyt. 
 
Larry Burden  27:25  
Right, subscribe to the podcast on podbean iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store, and Spotify. Leave a review, we love the feedback. We'd love your questions. Thanks for listening, and inspiring.
 
Larry Burden  27:41  
That was that was all over the map.
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:43  
That was a tricky one.
 
 

EdTech Loop Best Of - Digital Parenting

The school year is about to begin and the EdTech Loop crew is about ready to get back into the studio. Though I considered attempting to convince Danelle to record a new podcast over the Labour Day weekend, I instead recognized that I value our friendship and decided one more Best Of Episode is a more promising and healthy option. So pop in the earbuds, lay back on the beach towel and soak up the sun one more time before the school bell rings and join our “Digital Parenting,” conversation and as always thanks for listening and inspiring! 
 
Danelle Brostrom  3:27  
So I turned my phone off so that way it didn't brrrrr in the middle
 
instead of playing video games and just sit on the couch and veg.
 
Why are you always recording
 
Larry Burden  3:35  
That will be the intro to the pod...and done. Oops.
 
It is Episode 38 of the TCAPSLoopweekly podcast. My name is Larry Burden and she's convinced Al Bundy was actually a highly enlightened Cyborg. It's Daniel Brostrom. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:08  
I know the reference this week, Larry.
 
Larry Burden  4:12  
Oddly, I had to go farther back.
 
Carl Sagan was actually farther back, but still I had to go pretty far back. So well. How you doing? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:22  
Okay. It was great 
 
Larry Burden  4:23  
doing the Olympics watching.
 
Danelle Brostrom  4:25  
Um, a little. We like curling.
 
Larry Burden  4:26  
Who doens't like curling.
 
There was a tweet that I ran into on curling or how you watch how somebody watches curling, they had some explicit language, but it was pretty funny. It starts out the first minute, you're like, this is kind of boring. The 10th minute you're going you're like, ooh, he could have curled that stone a little bit better, maybe. The third one was like this highly like after like an hour and a half. You've got like this highly considered opinion on, you know, the tactics of curling. And by the end, you're just completely emotionally invested in it and screaming at the TV "Sweep!, Sweep!"
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:04  
accurate. 
 
Larry Burden  5:04  
It's pretty funny. curling is your sport, anything else?
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:08  
No, just curling.
 
Larry Burden  5:13  
high levels of athleticism, and curling. I did the opening ceremonies and I haven't really I haven't, I haven't, dove, dove in. Once you dive into the... with what I've learned is once you dive into the Olympics, you're you're into all the sports. But I haven't I haven't gone there yet, which is a bummer. We watched one curling match. Okay, that was that was quite, that was enough. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:36  
Close enough enough. 
 
Larry Burden  5:37  
I have a feeling sooner or later the figure skating is going to take over my household because I have a lot of girls,
 
Danelle Brostrom  5:43  
I do like the figure skating too. That is pretty cool.
 
Larry Burden  5:45  
Moving on, it's time, to get into the downward dog position, Your lotus position. clear your mind. It's our moment of Zen.
 
Don't try to waste a lifetime by trying to banish all danger. Just spend a moment now and then to banish fear.
 
Relatively apt, As we dig into the meat of the show, Parenting in the digital age. And I wanted to start by asking this question, we hit this topic, you have your email, do we want to do this? Again? We've kind of done this. I don't think we can do this enough. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:26  
I know. 
 
Larry Burden  6:26  
I really don't i don't think it's going away. I don't think it's gone away. So, why do we keep coming back to this?
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:32  
Well, it's really hard to parent, a digital kid, when you've never been a digital kid. You know, I when I grew up, 
 
Larry Burden  6:39  
The Wii doesn't count?
 
Danelle Brostrom  6:40  
No, the Wii doesn't help. When I grew up. We I mean, we didn't have computers. I mean, we had computers, but nothing, nothing like we do today, until I got into college. And then we were able to use things like the internet for research, you know. Things have changed so much. And they changed so quickly. And our kids know how to do it. And they're on top of it. And they've got ways to get around how we think we've controlled it. So, the more help we can give families and the more we can get families talking about this, I think the better off our kids are going to be.
 
Larry Burden  7:13  
Absolutely. So let's talk about this. You and Steffi are doing some presentations, and you dusted off an old Google slideshow. And I was going through it and Oh, wow. This is, you know, we've always talked, I think early on when we're having these discussions we were, finding it hard to find actionable things. Where this is, these are the things that parents, teachers can do. And I was going through the slideshow, and it was like, Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, the first one that hit me was make a plan. And If you want to give us some tips abroad, actually the slide show up, If you want to go through why making a plan is so important, because that I think that's, there's a reason why it's number one.
 
Yeah, no, I think making a plan is important making that plan before you actually give your child that device. This isn't like, you know, if my kid wants a finger laying, I go to the store and I buy one, they give it to her, whatever. This this, this is this is the most powerful computer in the world, and they can have it and be connected to everything. 24/7, so making this plan before you give them that device is really important. So think about things like timing, How old should your kids be? And we talked about that, wait until eighth," pledge and another podcast that some families are choosing to wait until the eighth grade point. And then thinking about like, what kinds of activities are you okay with your kids doing online? What kinds of time limits are you going to set? Can kids use media during homework time? Or is that kind of a know you're 100% focused on homework, nothing else? So trying to come up with this, this plan? What are your non negotiables? What are the things that are definitely unacceptable to you and communicate those with your kids. They have to know, this is the line, you do not cross it. And you can consider using a contract such as the 18 point iPhone contract, which is really, really good. It goes through things like I own your phone, I have the right to look at it anytime I want. Things like that. And then having you and your child sign it. Again, that communication with your kid is key. Definitely a non negotiable in our house is going to be the device free dinners. There's a lot of really great Will Ferrell commercials, where they're all sitting around a table and all the kids are like, I Miss Daddy, I Miss Daddy, too. I miss Daddy the most and they're like all sad. And then all of a sudden, you see that Will Ferrell is actually at the table with them, but he's on his phone. And He's like, like, like, like, like, oh, sorry, just five minutes, like, like, like. So you can see that they've I mean, they're trying to put it in a funny way. But in a lot of our families, you know, those devices are taking over that dinner table. And there's so much conversation and bonding that is missed when people are distracted. So I know that's a non negotiable in our house. And that is in our plan that we've made before we give our child a device. Things like rule breaking, you know, decide what the consequences will be when they break the rules. And then kind of plan ahead. The, your kids are going to do some curious searches, we call them. How are you going to address that? How are you going to address explicit text? How having a plan for what you're going to say what you're going to do? Are they going to lose their device? Are they not? Is it going to be punishment elsewhere. And then just staying connected, you know, the more you can foster your relationship with your kids, the more they're going to come to you when they have problems and run into something and I say when because they're going to run into something they don't know how to handle.
 
That's, that's being a kid. That goes back to the the failure podcast, that mindset, you know, the mistakes they're going to make with the digital device aren't necessarily bad, they're going to happen, it's going to happen. Being prepared for when it does happen, is showing good parenting skills. You know, having that plan is saying, okay, when this does happen, this is how we're going to react and not being surprised by it or taken aback or reacting out of fear.
 
Danelle Brostrom  11:13  
Yeah, we can't react out of fear. And we can't say, we can't say I'm never going to give my kid a device, or I'm never going to let them connect to the internet. Because that's not realistic, you have to come from a place of, kind of, understanding and recognizing and setting them up in a safe way. So that way when they fail, you're kind of there to help them. Catch them. 
 
Larry Burden  11:33  
You mentioned it earlier is the modeling. 
 
Yeah, 
 
Don't be Will Ferrell. And I think we get caught in that a lot. That is...with making a plan, modeling, good digital citizenship or behavior with your device or self control is so important. You know, getting back to the mindfulness thing, we talked about these topics, all these topics, and they all kind of dovetail together into being good stewards of digital, our digital lives. And then modeling, stewardship and good behavior with those devices. And it's not a, If you, if you allow yourself to live your life on your device, your device, and the people that create apps for your device will be more than happy to allow you to do that, they're not going to say, Oh, you really shouldn't be using my app. So it really is up to you to make the decision. And as an adult, you're much more capable, you should be much more capable of making that decision, than your, your students, your kids. So It's really, you know, very, very important for you to do that modeling so that when your kid gets in that situation, then go, this is the right way to interact with my device. Being up, out in front of it, so that they know what correct usage looks like. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  13:04  
Yeah, they're always watc hing us. And that's scary. But yeah, the whole idea of modeling. And I worry a lot about plugged-in parents. That's what, that's what Common Sense Media calls it. They did a great research project a couple years ago called plugged-in parents and some of the statistics that came from that. Things like parents spend more than nine hours a day with their screens. But 78% of parents believe they're good role models for their children. So we don't see how much time we spend on our screens. And one of the, so my husband I last night and doing some research for this, I made him go on his phone, and you can look and see. It's under "Settings," and then your "battery life." And you can see what your battery life has been spent on in the last 24 hours, in the last seven days. And I was like, look at this. Do you see how much time you spent on Twitter? He's like, Oh, That's not right. Like it is right? That is, that is right. 
 
Larry Burden  14:06  
Trust me. It's right. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:07  
It is right. So just, but that whole idea of being that, that, that model for balance and mindfulness and being with the people who you're with, but, but it's also it's you need to know, like, if we just go with, Oh, I'm fine, I think I'm fine. No, you need to see those hard numbers and see how long you're on Twitter and how long you're on Facebook. So you can say, Whoa, that is almost a full day of my life that I spend. No I didn't. But I didn't I swear. It's embarrassing. But, But you need to have, you need to see it to be able to recognize how much time we're spending, doing things like that 
 
Larry Burden  14:48  
Self reflection is a good thing. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  14:50  
Self reflection. That's what we call it. But you know, when when 41% of our teens and our kids are feeling that our, that their parents are distracted, their parents aren't there with them, when they're on their device, I think that's a problem.
 
Larry Burden  15:04  
Well, they'll find somebody to parent them,
 
Danelle Brostrom  15:07  
The device will parent them and media will parent them.
 
Larry Burden  15:09  
You're You're we were talking about the the wait until eighth pledge. And I think that's, I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't know...You were definitely swimming against the stream with that. You see a lot of the lot of the the iPads with with the with the babies with the kids with the, If it's not their phone, It's the parents phone. If it's not their iPad, It's their parents iPad. You know, allowing the device to be the parent, because we, we believe that we're very, very busy. And we're doing these things. And sometimes it's easier just to do that. That's another that's another role model. That's another modeling situation that you gotta gotta catch yourself, even though it is it is very easy. You hand a child an iPad and your, your parenting job is done. It'll come back later. But at that moment, it's you know, that situation is taken care of 
 
Danelle Brostrom  16:13  
Yeah but, as a parent, you have to think of the whole picture, like there are definitely times in Meijer where my kids are throwing stuff into the cart and messing with each other. And I'm like, here, you play Daniel Tiger, and here you read a book on the phone, just just, we just have to get through Meijer or, you know, we get home and I'm trying to make dinner and do all the things you need to do. And they're fighting, like here guys, go sit and watch Phineas and Ferb, I'm going to go in the kitchen and do dinner. Like, there are definitely times when that happens as a parent, that's just life. But there's also, we've made choices about what kinds of apps and games and TV shows we allow. And then we make choices on the amount of time, which is a lot smaller than it could be.
 
Larry Burden  16:52  
And if you have that plan beforehand, it's going to be a lot easier to make appropriate decisions. So when you do allow for digital device usage, because you have a plan, you're not just giving them the world. At that point in time. You're giving them what you feel as a parent is the appropriate amount of the world. So that, you know, you understand the sandbox that they're playing in. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  17:18  
For sure, for sure. That and that's another thing that we tell parents is to get, get in that sandbox, you know. Do, do random spot checks of their phone and kind of see, see what what's on there. Make sure that you're the filter for downloading apps, you know, they don't get to just download any apps without you. But get in there. And if they want to download Instagram, you get on Instagram first and see what you think about it and see, see how easy it is to get into trouble or how hard it is and, and then you decide as a parent, whether you want them to have that on their device or not. And, you know, if there's a new video game that they want to play, you know, media has really changed I think about, and like the 1950s, when everyone would kind of gather together around the tiny little TV and you would have conversations, like media was that shared experience. And most living rooms now everybody's kind of on their own device, and nobody's really doing that interacting. So getting in that game yourself. So your kids want to play the video game, pick up the controller and play with them and see, see, see what that just try to recreate that shared experience and be in the game with them and know that they're going to move. You know, if they're on, they're not on Facebook, because we're on Facebook, but if they are on Facebook, it's because they have a nice, perfect version of themselves on Facebook for you, and family. But they're actually on Instagram. So you moved to Instagram, and then they moved to Snapchat. So you move to Snapchat. Like you need to follow and keep up with them, which is a full time job in itself, but you need to do as best that you can do to stay in the game with them. 
 
Larry Burden  18:54  
And when you do see, your parenting radar goes off because you see a post that they have, or a comment that they have that isn't appropriate, or it doesn't seem quite right. It is then thier, they will fight you on this. But it is your responsibility and your prerogative to say you need to delete this. This is not appropriate and isn't is not representative of, of you as a person and will probably get you in some level of trouble down the road. But really it is your call. As a parent thing, going back to what you were said, you said about, It's your device, you paid for it. And even beyond that, you know, throwing out the, "I paid for it," you know, saying is if you saw your child doing something inappropriate outside of their digital life, you would call them out for it and there would be, you know, repercussions or a conversation. The same thing should should hold for their digital lives as well. So when you do see something, It's a great, it's a great teachable moment.
 
Danelle Brostrom  20:00  
For sure. 
 
Larry Burden  20:01  
You know, and those are in there, their digital life is not going to be stopping anytime soon. So it's just as important to call those moments out. If, If Little Johnny punches little Jill in the face, you're going to, obviously, there's going to be repercussions there. If little Jill snapchats inappropriate comments to little Johnny, the same holds true. There's damage done. We need to be able to look at those as equal situations and you know, treat them the same because they are the effects, you know, student you know, our kids very similarly.
 
Danelle Brostrom  20:40  
So we need to remember to be having those conversations with our kids that the internet is loud, and the internet is permanent. So everything that you do, like I can only work hands, all the mistakes that we made weren't videoed, they weren't out for everyone to see. We were able to fail and make those mistakes and kind of be sheltered. But it's not that way anymore, their digital footprint is out there and it's not going away. So those inappropriate comments that they do make, could very well follow them and could affect them in the future in and jobs, and colleges, and the ramifications are just ridiculously crazy for our kids.
 
Larry Burden  21:17  
And even there, there frame of reference is considerably smaller, you're telling them that they're going to, their text, or their Snapchat is going to affect their college career, it's probably gonna go right over their head, because I'm not really thinking about it. But letting them know that, that Snapchat was screenshot and though it was screenshot by a friend. You have a, you have a, you know, a bad day with that friend, and suddenly that screenshot is shared everywhere. And that's, you know, that's affecting them in the now and you will probably get there is much more likely to get their attention even though you're looking as a as a parent, you know, three, four or five 6, 10 years down the road. That's not where their field of vision is. So you, they might miss that point. It's not saying that that's not the important point. But whether or not they're going to be hearing that point. Eh, might not be close enough to home.
 
Danelle Brostrom  22:19  
Yep. And that's okay. And one of the things that we definitely advocate for are short, repeated conversations, your kids need your guidance. They might not seem like they ever want your guidance, but just that's okay. Just keep keep hitting them with that, you know, they might not be listening now. But it might come back later. And we talked about some different conversation ideas like talking with kids about what does it mean, when your friend doesn't answer right away? Because the kids think, Oh, my gosh, she didn't answer my text, she must hate me. And they go into these little spirals. But maybe she's out playing basketball with her dad, like it's okay that she doesn't answer right away. And the whole idea that behind every online interaction, there's a real person. We talked before about how tech companies use like, some streaks to get you addicted, I think it's important for kids to have that knowledge. How the media reinforces gender stereotypes, impact versus intent with some of the language that happens online. Even just finding examples of kind and unkind comments, you can go on any social media site and see that and talking with your kids about that kind of stuff. We just need to continue to have these conversations. And one of the resources that we share with families is the screenagers website, they have something called Tech Talk Tuesdays, and every single Tuesday, they email you different conversation topics that you can have with your kids at the dinner table. And it's amazing, because I never, I mean, this list is awesome. But I never, I never think about it in the moment. But then on Tuesday, I get that email and I'm like, Oh, okay. Tonight, we're going to talk about these six topics. And I've got three conversation starters. And it's, it's a perfect reminder, and it's a perfect shell of what I should be doing.
 
Larry Burden  23:57  
When we're going through this list. And you're you're mentioning resources, my thought was, this is not just for nerds. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  24:15  
Do you think thsi is just for nerds Larry? You are. I am! 
 
Larry Burden  24:21  
No, but, you know, I think a lot of times, you might think that, you know, doing these deep digital dives, that going to Common Sense Media, going to, what was the last one that you.
 
Danelle Brostrom  24:36  
The Screenagers Tech Talk Tuesday.
 
Larry Burden  24:37  
Tech Talk Tuesday, although I'm not, you know, that's not really my bag, you know, I'm not a I'm not a digital person, even though you're on your phone, checking Twitter, you know, 10-15 hours a day. Everybody is, everybody is a nerd now, certainly your kids, you know, the definition may have changed a little bit or a concept of it. We have to recognize that, that even though you're not coding, You are living a digital life. Everybody is living, living a digital life. So we have to be prepared for that. And we weren't taught in school, we weren't given the tools. You know, as parents, we were not given the tools, it wasn't part of our growing up process. You know, a lot of that a lot of the common sense stuff, m ost of the common sense stuff we received, just through growing up that was part of the process is kind of baked in the digital stuff was not. So we do need to kind of kind of backfill those resources, and it isn't going to necessarily be an, you know, obvious, because the playing fields changed. So we kind of have to relearn the rules or learn new rules. And check out those resources, even though it might not be your bag is probably a really wise thing to do. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  26:00  
For sure. Common Sense Media is one of my favorites. I love that. So, So ideally you should be having these conversations with. But with other parents, you should be talking to the parents of the kids in the houses where your your kid spends time. You know, my kid always has the best, my kid has the best friend, she spends time over there, I should be talking to her mom about media roles in their house. And we should just be having that conversation with the parents that are around us. But if we can't, or we don't feel like we have a parent group around us Common Sense, Media is great for that. Because there's a whole entire section on parent concerns. There's a whole entire section on parenting advice blog, so you can go on and you can get advice for how to deal with curious searches, or when to get your kid a cell phone or one the other day, it was just different things you can do to your own phone to help you be more in the moment. And I mean, there's the reviews and the ratings. And those are amazing, because you can go on and find reviews and ratings for any book, movie games, apps, any of that stuff, but the whole parenting section that you can join this online community and kind of lurk and see what's going on. And that you can have this group of knowledgeable parents around you as you go into the media digital battlefield. That's what it feels like sometimes, but it's just it's nice to have Common Sense Media in your bag.
 
Larry Burden  27:21  
I think sometimes our kids think it's a battlefield.
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:22  
It is a battlefield
 
Larry Burden  27:25  
Give them helmets. Go on out there, get into the trenches!
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:28  
It is. 
 
Larry Burden  27:29  
So You know, when I was thinking about this earlier, I thought less is more. But it's more better than none. I'm saying that as far as you know, less screen time is better, You know, but is more better than not isolating them from? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:50  
You can't isolate them from. 
 
Larry Burden  27:52  
I think that's what I was getting to. That ship has sailed. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  27:56  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  27:56  
So at some point in time, they're going to live in the digital world.
 
Unknown Speaker  28:02  
Larry, I saw a statistic yesterday, from a research paper that 98% of our kids ages two and over have access to a device
 
Larry Burden  28:11  
ages 2, 2 and over
 
Danelle Brostrom  28:14  
They can barely talk but they have access to a device. That's sailed. 
 
Larry Burden  28:18  
Yeah. So you can't, do the ostrich you put your head in the sand.
 
Danelle Brostrom  28:24  
I want to.
 
Larry Burden  28:26  
and say this is going away? It's not. You can say that we don't live that type of lifestyle. You probably do. So, and your kids certainly are. So educate yourself. Yeah, make sure that you're educated and that you have, I loved what you said about you know, talk about this with your friends, with your fellow parents, it doesn't necessarily have to be doing a bunch of research online. You know, find your peers and talk with them about it. I think that's a great idea.
 
Danelle Brostrom  28:58  
Yeah. Because you can guarantee that they have the same concerns and the same frustrations and the same, "nobody knows what they're doing." That's like, that's like the secret of parenting that I found out recently. Nobody knows what they're doing. We're all just trying to figure it out as we go. But if I listened to like, what you know, and what you know, and what you know, and what, you know, I can kind of put it all together and, okay, I feel a little bit better, you know.
 
Larry Burden  29:17  
And you know, we when we talk about our own social media environments, we tend not to Facebook, Twitter, whatever might be a great resource. Or Instagram might be a great resource for asking those questions. Except we don't, we don't we don't we don't actually you tend to use that we tend to paint paint a pretty picture of our lives, Instead of asking the tough questions, that those spaces might actually be useful, that. Though I would argue that sometimes those spaces don't lead to the conversations you'd like to have on those topics.
 
Danelle Brostrom  29:50  
Now have it in person, have it around the coffee table?
 
Just be with people? 
 
Larry Burden  29:56  
Absolutely. So what else you got?
 
Danelle Brostrom  29:57  
What else I got.  
 
Larry Burden  29:57  
There's a lot of slides.
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:00  
There's a lot of really good information on here. And I would like to link this up, but like, okay, so we talked before that I'm a nerd. And yes, I am a nerd. But there's a bunch of really, really good books out right now that I would recommend, "The Art of Screen Time," how your family can balance digital media and real life, "Unselfie," why empathetic kids succeed in an all about me world, "Irresistible." We talked about that before the rise of addictive technology and the business of keeping us hooked. "Social Media Wellness," helping teens and tweens thrive in an unbalanced digital world. And then you know, we, we've talked about it sometimes on the Loop weekly podcast. So keeping in tune with what we're doing. And then the Common Sense Media and the Screenagers website, Those are my, my, if you want to branch out and do other reading, That's where I would recommend going to.
 
Larry Burden  30:48  
Reading? 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:49  
Reading. I read so many books. Yeah,
 
Larry Burden  30:52  
that's a good thing. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  30:52  
It's a good thing. 
 
Larry Burden  30:53  
All right, anything else, or we're gonna be over. This conversation could go on much longer. I don't think we got to a quarter of the slides. 
 
Danelle Brostrom  31:03  
Are you saying I have too many slides?
 
Larry Burden  31:04  
So again, going back to the email earlier, when you asked, "have we beaten this to death?"  No, no, there'll be a no! we could do this every week. And I don't think it'd be enough to be honest. But I am cutting you off.
 
So Tech Tool of the Week, 
 
Danelle Brostrom  31:24  
Tech Tool of the Week, I want to share with you this really cool thing that my daughter got from the Public Library. I know some of our secondary schools at TCAPS and a couple of elementary schools have have these in their library, too. So this is called a Play Away. She's currently listening to Sarah Penny Packers novel called, "Packs." And This is the entire novel on this little device. So she plugs headphones into it. And she starts it and she can start and stop, she can play, She can change the speed of the reading, which I really like that kids that want to listen to a little faster, a little slower can have it. But what I like about this is it offers, it offers our kids access to novels that maybe they couldn't read themselves. We know that, that's why we give kids books on tape. But these are really, really cool. They're really tiny, they can fit in the pocket. She's listening to them in the car, this is the only way I can get her to do chores. because she'll put it on while she's doing things around the house. And my kid's a big reader, she walks into walls, let's be honest, she holds her book up and she walks into walls. Well, now she's listening. So she doesn't walk into walls all the time. So, we love Play Aways. But they have these for adults too. And I just think this is a really cool way to like I said, I'm a big reader, but I don't always have time to sit and physically read books, Play Aways are great for that. They're awesome. They have like I said they haven't for adults, but on the Public Library has quite a big selection. And our secondary schools have a selection as well. So...
 
Larry Burden  32:51  
Little updates, tutorials and updates. Actually, I haven't checked the tutorial situation. So I don't know if anybody's put anything on there. Wanted to let you know, we recorded a "Gamification" pod with the TechNollerGist, yesterday that was a lot of fun. Was in Traverse Heights last week and did a fun actually Danielle was there, did a fun Maker Space Launch Pad little video that's that's posted. If you want to get a maker space going and you're wondering, what does it look like? That's a it's a nice little one minute video to kind of give you a brief, brief glimpse. They haven't got the Tech Tool a playlist up yet, but still want to do that. So all your tech tools of the week will be in one spot. And I wanted to bring up something that maybe isn't tech focused, but I thought was really important. East Middle School did a documentary on opioid use. And it is, it's a hard watch. And it was put together by the middle school students. It was the digital media class over at East Middle School. And I highly advise any parent to to watch it and sit down with their kids and watch. It's about 15 minutes long. But we'll have the link to that in the show notes, show notes. It's you know, digital citizenship and digital literacy is very important. This is kind of another side that's as far as parenting goes. It's kind of an ugly truth that I think a lot of times we want to avoid, But it is a problem. So I highly recommend watching that.
 
Danelle Brostrom  34:26  
What class Larry did you say did that?
 
Larry Burden  34:28  
It's the digital media class.
 
Danelle Brostrom  34:29  
Awesome. They were trying to make... 
 
TrojanTV 
 
and community or something like that. 
 
Larry Burden  34:34  
Yeah, So I want to make the segue. Our Superintendent spoke about this at last night's board meeting, and he attempted to make a positive segue out of it. And it didn't work so I'm not even gonna try. So I'm just gonna say Follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop
 
Danelle Brostrom  34:54  
@brostromda 
 
Larry Burden  34:56  
Check out the TCAPSloop blog at tcapsloop.tcaps.net. Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud and the Google Play Store, leave a review. We love the feedback. Any advice that you have that you might want to share? Feel free to leave that to. So we'd love to have a conversation about this. What are you doing with your kids to help them deal with thier digital lives. Thanks for listening and inspiring.
 
Danelle Brostrom  35:27  
That was good.
 
Larry Burden  35:28  
That was good.
 

Best of the TechNollerGist - Design Thinking

Again we jump into the Way Back machine and pay a visit with a slightly younger and more vivacious TechNollerGist who has thoughts on incorporating Design Thinking into the classroom. If you find the pod useful or at least mildly interesting, please subscribe and give us a rating on your app of choice and as always thanks for listening and inspiring! 
 
Larry Burden  0:19  
 So much good content. So much good content.
 
David Noller  0:24  
I was  starting to worry about a few are getting my good side but I'm not sure I have one anymore.
 
Larry Burden  0:35  
It's episode 5 of the TechNollerGist 
 
David Noller  0:39  
I keep thinking you're hanging on numbers like this is only the fifth one 
 
Larry Burden  0:43  
This is only the official fifth one, I checked. I was looking through the records and it was number five. 
 
David Noller  0:48  
All right, 
 
Larry Burden  0:48  
Unless my records are bad, which is very likely because like, math, not strong. 
 
David Noller  0:52  
That's not. I'm sure it's right. 
 
Larry Burden  0:54  
By the way, I am your humble host Larry Burden, and I'm joined by the man who's gamed the system. It's the TechNollerGist. 
 
David Noller  0:59  
That's right, gaming the system. I like that, I like it.
 
Larry Burden  1:02  
David Noller, the TechNollerGist, the topic should you choose to accept it? Is design thinking? 
 
David Noller  1:08  
Do we not have a moment of Zen 
 
Larry Burden  1:09  
We, the moment of zen is that other that we don't talk about that other podcast?
 
David Noller  1:15  
I'll give you one, the guy who directed.
 
Larry Burden  1:17  
The TechNollerGist Tidbit, 
 
David Noller  1:19  
TechNollerGist Tidbit. The guy who directed The Red Balloon that famous French short film also invented the board game Risk. 
 
Larry Burden  1:27  
I didn't know that.
 
David Noller  1:33  
So the idea of design, the design cycle in education. I started getting introduced. I started getting interested in this a couple years ago. And every time I saw the design cycle, I always felt like it feels like it's another lockstep and I know it wasn't supposed to. But every time I saw a model, it was start here, then do this, then do this, then repeat. And I understood the purpose of it that you introduce an idea, you create a hypothesis, you build something to test that hypothesis, you determine if there's any, anything you need to change in order for it to be more successful, you adjust it and you do it again. But it still felt like a pattern. It still felt like a...
 
Larry Burden  2:19  
like something that was designed?
 
David Noller  2:20  
like an unwieldy process. 
 
Larry Burden  2:22  
Okay, okay, 
 
David Noller  2:23  
Maybe it's my, my sort of, my approach to design in the first place, which is to sort of jump in and swim around for a while, and then take a look around and see where you are. And if there's sharks, then you obviously have to swim away. But, but if there's no sharks, you can keep going.
 
Larry Burden  2:39  
Isn't that though, a system? 
 
David Noller  2:41  
it isn't a way 
 
Larry Burden  2:43  
you said that. And I'm like, that kind of mirrors the system that you just mentioned. 
 
David Noller  2:49  
And it does. And because you know, I'm kind of a visual person, When I would see those design cycles with a starting point, and then it would loop around and start again, It looks a little bit like a rat race, or a mouse wheel, I guess, is the thing. And I never want to get stuck on that mouse wheel. And we, we saw something when we went to the METS fall rally, which was the Michigan Educational Technology Specialists fall rally. And we did the design project. But the, the, the, the cycle, the design cycle came from Ford's model I Project, 
 
Larry Burden  3:28  
Okay. 
 
David Noller  3:29  
And It's another look at how to do innovation. It's another look at how to do a design cycle. And what I liked about it was that there there are the, what they call the the actions of innovation. And these are things that you would normally see on, on a design cycle. Uncover, which is the idea where we're trying to figure out what it is that's needed. Then we're going to define the problem, we're going to design something to address it, we're going to test it and optimize it, and then we're going to implement that solution. Okay, Those are the things that normally see in a design cycle, versions of that. But the Model I approach adds, things like being empathic. When you're working with your test audience, or the people who are going to be using that thing, that product, that idea. Engaging them with empathy. Now, that's an old human design concept. But the way it's engaged here is, is different in that, for some of the old design human design projects, you start with empathy. You talk to your consumer, you talk to your audience, you figure out what they need, and then you take over from there. And, and maybe it's just the way that the Model I laid out. But they have that empathy piece being, coming into the process at each step. So sure, in the beginning, when you're trying to understand the process, but also when you're designing it, and also when you're implementing it. And also when you are generating ideas. What they call the habits of the innovator, are sprinkled in throughout the actions of innovation. So you've got the action of design. And then you've got these habits and things like: taking risks, be empathetic, collaborate, stay curious, learn from failure, challenge the rules. So that at each step along the way of that design process, you're being reminded to challenge the rules, be empathetic, Stay curious, collaborate, take risks, all those things. And when I, when I saw that model, as somebody who is someone who kind of challenges status quo and looks to do things differently. It was, it's, it's another look at a design model that allows for a lot more customization and interaction, where the the empathy part isn't just in the beginning to figure out what you need. It flows through the whole project. If nothing else from the METS fall rally, that was my big takeaway. Was, was that new look at the model. Nothing, nothing in the model's, particularly brand new. We've been doing human, human design theory for a long time. But it's the way I think that it's implemented that I think was, for me, at least a new thing.
 
Larry Burden  6:12  
It's not just the program, it actually shows you how to navigate the construct. Yeah. Which is different.
 
David Noller  6:18  
Yeah, the "what" hasn't changed? Maybe the how, and maybe the why, I think maybe... 
 
Larry Burden  6:23  
Even maybe the who? 
 
David Noller  6:24  
yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  6:25  
Because really, what they're what they're doing is they're they're engaging, they're getting you to engage in it, and reflect on it as a, as an individual or as a group going through the process. I think that's different, you're not just looking at the process, you're actually engaged, and they're asking you to be subjective, right in the process, right, so that you're really engaged in it.
 
David Noller  6:45  
And I think it's really reflective of, of teaching and how, how our staffs engaged in planning, where we're reading The Kite Runner right now. And you can, you can set, you can set your students up in the beginning, understanding where they're understanding where they're, where their prejudices might lie, or just their pre judgments about parts of the world or, or even about reading. And we can, we can engage those things early on. And then throughout the process. We do that all the time, we come back, and we check back in and we see have your attitudes changed? How have your, how has your understanding changed? I think that's built into a lot of our planning in the in the first place, 
 
Larry Burden  7:23  
You know, we're going through the ISTE standards for educators, right. And it just so happens, that next week, we're going to be jumping into the I do believe the fifth standard, which is designer. And yeah, well enough. And if I can read, I'm kind of curious what your take on it is? Educators design authentic learner driven activities and environments that recognize and accommodate learner variability? 
 
David Noller  7:45  
Yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  7:46  
I'm not going to go through the indicators and what that is. But it's interesting that in METS, there was there were discussions on this. Here in ISTE standards, it's important enough to be recognized. Why, and you mentioned that this is something that educators just do, why is there so much of an emphasis on this? When, to some extent, well, you know, we design we design all the time, we're designing curriculum, we're designing our classroom management process, you know...
 
David Noller  8:24  
Sure. Why is there, why is there an emphasis when we already do it? Because I think there's a difference between, sort of accidentally walking into it and being intentional about it. And I think we all as teachers do it from time to time. But I think there's also a challenge that we can meet by being intentional about engaging it more often. Anytime we engage kids in a meaningful, learner centered activity, that's authentic, that gives them real world experience. We know, that's how they learn better. Sometimes we get stuck in, yeah, but I have to finish this chapter or, yeah, but I have a textbook and I started at page one, and I got to get to the last one. And sometimes I think we get stuck in curriculum, when if we take a step back and slowed down just a minute, we can engage them in things that are going to last longer, in terms of impact for them. Then, as, as needed by finishing the book, finishing the textbook, or getting to that last chapter. Now I know, I'm speaking for teachers who, you know, like math teachers, I've got the SAT to confront, you know, that's something that we know that they they have to deal with. But it's how we get the kids there. And I think sometimes we can get stuck in that curriculum. And sometimes we can get stuck in the way I've always done it. I'm actually kind of lucky in a way that it's rare that I have a textbook for any of my classes. I had a textbook for 10th grade, and I had a book that I used for AP Lit. But just about every other class I've taught has been go figure it out. 
 
Larry Burden  10:01  
Even the classrooms, in the pieces that are in the areas of the curricular, areas that have textbooks or have some pre, some designated materials that they have to go through. One of the neat things about design thinking I feel is what it's doing is saying, Look at your playing field. There are variables in every playing field, every game has rules. Every game has rules. Once you recognize what the playing field is, and what the rules are, now you can construct and design within those rules. Yeah, you know, it's nice that you have a little bit wider playing field, right. But really the, the, the concept behind the design thinking is is therefore any, any playing field, any game.
 
David Noller  10:45  
Yeah. Any game. And the other nice thing is that within this within that philosophy that approach using design thinking, It also lends itself towards customizing your experiences for the kids who need the customization. I have three English language learners this year, exchange students from Germany, Italy, and Sweden. And I've had to make adjustments along the way, in order to make sure that their experience of the class is meaningful in a way that I mean, literally meaningful, like linguistically meaningful to them. And so we've we've added some new things within the, within how I teach to make that makes sense. Google Presentation now has live Closed Captioning of presentations. So as I present information, if I do it in a in a Google Presentation, It will live closed caption as I speak, and it's pretty accurate. It's pretty cool. I actually use a podcasting Mic to do it, because it can't hear me a little clearer. But that fits right into that part. As a designer of the empathy. I look at my audience, and I see who needs what, and then I make adjustments based on who needs that thing.
 
Larry Burden  11:54  
I think every educator on some level is an artist. You have to be when as you're a designer, you're an artist, you're using creativity. And really the magic of, what happens in the classroom is exploring. But It's neat to see that the educator, and I think it would be good for the for the educator to recognize that they are exploring and they are digging into their their own creative mindset, their own design, mindset, the design mindset every time they look at their curricular area, right or their classroom, and they really think about it holistically and empathetically,
 
David Noller  12:31  
And how can you get, how can you best get to the outcome that you're looking for for that audience? We have the same goal for all of our all of our students in terms of outcome, but how we get them there, because as part of that art, and sometimes we do adjust the outcome for our students. But we don't adjust it in a way that removes the meaning from it that it might be a slightly lower target, it might be a slightly different way to complete the target. But I don't think we ever change it to the point where the goal has lost its meaning.
 
Larry Burden  13:01  
So you're going to go there earlier. But I and I kind of stopped I feel I gotta apologize. But so before we jump into it, I wanted to ask you a question because this is going to be a new segment of the TechNollerGist podcast, and I don't have a name for I was struggling to find a name for the segment, you know, we have in tech tool or in the TCAPSLoop weekly podcast, we have the Tech Tool of the week, we have our name, 
 
David Noller  13:23  
Right? 
 
Larry Burden  13:24  
We need a name for this. So I'm actually you know, anybody that's listening, if you've got a if you've got a name for like some kind of a gamification now gamified title, 
 
David Noller  13:35  
Okay, if I get to,
 
Larry Burden  13:37  
absolutely. 
 
David Noller  13:38  
I'll have to think about? Yeah, 
 
Larry Burden  13:40  
So look out for that. So with that, what is, what is it?
 
David Noller  13:45  
Here's the thing. So I thought maybe that's it. here's the here's the thing, that's actually a thing that I say quite a bit. So here's the thing. Last year, I talked about a version of Monopoly that I played with my sociology kids, right? I haven't done that yet this year. I'm playing around with where I do it in my in my semester, I did it. 
 
Larry Burden  14:04  
Are you designing? 
 
David Noller  14:04  
A little bit. I did it early last year. And I don't feel like it had the same kind of impact as when they had a little bit more under their belt. So I'm holding off on that. But I came away from the METS meetup that we had thinking more about design and engagement. And I keep coming back to games in the classroom. And we're reading The Kite Runner. And there's a section of the Kite Runner where the family is trying to escape because the Soviets have come and things are bad. And so they're they're, they're on their way out. And they have to figure out how to leave. And so we've done a little bit of background information with our kids about what's the social situation in Afghanistan and the time, I think it's 1979. The Soviets have returned to the country, if you look at a map of where they were, they kind of created a ring. And then Kabul was also a dangerous place to be. And so I gave the kids of the challenge of they were making decide how many people are in their family, and they they have to leave from the same neighborhood as our characters in Kite Runner. So we're working on 1979 political condition, but 2018 financial condition, because I didn't want them to have to, "How much is a plane ticket in 2018, verses 1979." The idea was, they had to come up with a route and plan out how much money they were going to spend, to get out. And they could go to any number of, of locations, I could go to North America, Australia, someplace in Africa, Japan, South Korea, UK, Europe. They could go pretty much anywhere they wanted to they had to figure out how to get there, in an affordable way. And that's all I said was affordable. I kind of tricked them. And when they were while they're traveling in the airport, if they had to buy food, it was twice what they would normally spend. If they were around town, just for average. I asked them to figure out how much per hundred miles it would cost them to drive. And then I asked them to use travel websites to figure out how much it costs to fly or take a bus or whatever from. So The goal is Escape Afghanistan. But...
 
Larry Burden  16:19  
now we're not talking Afghani you bus fares. We're talking about bus fares, 
 
David Noller  16:22  
right? 
 
Larry Burden  16:23  
Just, you know, they said, having to go into the dark web. And 
 
David Noller  16:25  
Yeah, they said how we supposed to know how much it costs get from Kabul to whatever. And I said, Well, what do you think? And somebody said, Well, can we just figure out how much it costs to get from here to like Chicago, and then use that? Sure. Let's do that thing. It's not going to be 100% accurate. But for the purposes of what we were doing, It worked. So that that's all great. And that could be its own little thing on its own, probably. But that's just math. But this was the fun part, I thought. Whenever they changed modes of transportation, entered another city, cross the border, I rolled dice, and then I game mastered the condition. So I rolled it, I use six, six sided dice, I would roll these virtual dice and ones are failures. They're terrible. Sixes are awesome. They're great. And everything in between four and above is a success. Three and below is a not success. And based on the dice rolls, I would then tell a story. Normally, I would want the kids telling the story. But based on what we were doing. I was I was giving them complications that then they had to respond to. So there was a group that rolled really high and actually got to borrow their rich aunt's private plane and fly to Turkey. They weren't all the way home yet. But they got to that. Another group that rolled very low. One of the people in their group was abducted. There's other players who they ended up running out of money in Moscow. And so now they're in Moscow as an Afghani, not speaking the language with no money and can't go any further. After this whole thing was over, and we took an entire day to do this. And we role played out all kinds of things that people along the route that stopped you and demanded payment, somebody who was was treated very kindly by somebody that they met along the way, there was somebody who was put on a terror watch list, because their last name matched the name of somebody who had just committed an act of violence. So we had all these sort of historical and present day consequences that happened as a result of me rolling dice. So I wasn't just deciding, oh, you're gonna have a terrible thing, I would roll the dice and say, Well, here's what happens. We've talked a little bit about the design thing and the the idea of empathy. We started with the idea of we're going to do something to try to understand our characters better, because they're about to go through something that's, that's... 
 
Larry Burden  18:53  
Pretty difficult, 
 
David Noller  18:54  
Pretty difficult. And then we played this game. And the real kicker came at the end, when I said, Okay, everybody know, how much did y'all spend? And it was in the thousands, Right? And I said, Okay, here's the issue, though. The typical Afghan makes $400 a month, on average. So those are 2018 dollars you're playing with? How are you going to get that much money together to get your family out? And I said, so these really journeys that we just took? And we looked at all the list the money that we just spent, and one student from the back of the room says, they're just dreams. And I went, yes, that's, that's it. And and then I asked them to write about how that changed their understanding of refugees, people who try to escape countries, and why they do, and why they take the routes that they take? Why are people willing to get on a boat with 60 other people when it's supposed to only hold 15. So they have no other way.
 
Larry Burden  19:54  
That chance is better than no chance. 
 
David Noller  19:56  
That chance is better than no chance and, and 
 
Larry Burden  19:59  
So you're saying I got a chance, 
 
David Noller  20:01  
You're saying there's a chance. So In the end, the whole game was designed to get the kids in a more empathetic place themselves as readers of the literature that we're considering and to have them experience even in that just that simulation, what goes through your mind when you're trying to get out. Because they really engaged in this. I was really proud of them for taking it seriously. There was one group, what they weren't willing to do is accept the negative. When we role played this out, a lot of the teams were they were very accepting of the negative. They, they knew they had to trade something good for something bad. There, were there were times when they had to decide, am I going to leave this other person behind? Or am I going to pay the bribe and be penniless from now on. And they confronted that, and they wrote about that. The one group that didn't really come along? Was because they didn't want to accept the negative, they didn't want to deal with the consequence. They wanted to just shield themselves from it. So they're not used to dealing with, you know, life changing consequence of 
 
Larry Burden  21:07  
zero sum game zero. 
 
David Noller  21:09  
That's right. So,
 
Larry Burden  21:11  
so is this podcast about design or empathy? 
 
David Noller  21:14  
Yes. How can I not only use empathy to design the game, but then have the game produce empathy? In Human Design Theory, You start with empathy. And so if we're going to engage our kids in modern thinking about work. Our design companies, well, not even our design companies, our companies use these kinds of approaches and how they make decisions. Our kids need to get used to that kind of decentralized, more collaborative, decision making, engaging and empathy along the way so that their decisions can be informed by the human condition,
 
Larry Burden  21:55  
If I can argue your point. I think our kids are, 
 
David Noller  21:59  
Yeah.
 
Larry Burden  22:00  
I think, I think as educators were maybe you know, might be lagging a little bit in that process.
 
David Noller  22:08  
That's great clarification. There's so many things where I think our kids are naturally already doing it. And we're trying to play catch up. They're used to being collaborative. When they play Fortnite, they're collaborating with Team all day long and talking to each other and giving each other instructions and, and helping each other accomplish something. If you don't understand it, but your friend does, ask him. A couple last little things. You know, one of the a couple of the things that we had were challenge the rules, take risks, and stay curious. Collaborate, okay, they collaborated, I had them working in groups, they had to figure this out together. The groups that did the best and had the the highest level engagement, and frankly, had the best times, were the ones that were really willing to role play it and to stay curious about, well, what happens if we go here? If is there, What's there that we can get? Is there a bus station? Is there a plane station? 
 
Larry Burden  22:57  
has questions, 
 
David Noller  22:58  
Google Maps does a great job of providing you with that information. The other part was challenging the rules, I would have kids and I love this would say, well, can we, don't give them a lot of rules. But they would say can we and then they prompt me with something that I hadn't thought of? Sure, you can do that. There's the group that said, Can we hire a private jet? Well, let's see what the dice say. They're the ones that rolled like five sixes and a five. At that point, I said, not only can you hire a private jet, You actually have a famous aunt who was an actress, and she has offered to foot the bill for you to get Turkey. She's flying there for film festival anyway. So as long as she's going there, she'll take your crew and then all you have to do is get from there to Greece, because they wanted to go to some someplace in Northern Greece. So that's the kind of thing that would happen along the way where they would challenge the the assumptions, even though there weren't really that many rules. But they would, they would, they would sort of challenge the context. And and I want to say yes, as much as I can. And then, and then, taking risks. And there was a kid who had to decide, he had to, he had to choose between either sacrificing himself, he was just going to not be alive anymore, or becoming a drug mule. Because stuff like that happens.
 
Larry Burden  24:11  
Did you have, you said 3, 3, 6 sided dice or 18? 
 
David Noller  24:14  
6? 6? Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  24:16  
So did you have that many variables set up? pre had you designed as? And The reason I say that is you know, you, you game? 
 
David Noller  24:27  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  24:27  
And and have a penchant for storytelling? 
 
David Noller  24:30  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  24:31  
Not every educator is going to have, 
 
David Noller  24:33  
understood
 
Larry Burden  24:34  
have that skill. So what would you, and what we're going way long here, so then I shouldn't do this. What would you recommend for an educator that maybe doesn't have that skill set.
 
David Noller  24:47  
When I have done this before, I've also used what I call chance cards. And I don't call them chance cards, monopoly calls them chance cards. But I would design a series of cards that have a consequence. And I could I could do this completely independently, where the kids come up and just grab a card and they see what happens. I like to be engaged in the kids. And I do enjoy the storytelling part. And so for me, rolling the dice and telling a story is easy. But I could, It would take an extra hour of preparation to prepare 30 chance cars of what's going to happen as a result. And you will, you could have still have the kids roll dice. And then if it's a good result, they pick from this pile. And if it's bad result, they pick from the other pile, they can set it up ahead of time on cards or just on a grid. They could ever everything typed out, and printed out, and have two columns of good result, bad results, and kind of cross things off as they happen.
 
Larry Burden  25:39  
Good solution. 
 
David Noller  25:40  
Yeah. 
 
Larry Burden  25:41  
Alright. tutorials and updates. Just wanted to throw it again that we had a podcast last week on the blueprint with Dr. Grant Chandler was very interesting. Good stuff, if you're interested in how a school district is changing how it's running. We have another ISTE standards, collaborator, pod coming up, should be posted. Hopefully this week. It's been a busy week. So I'm a little bit behind. I wanted to just give you a shout out. The tutorials you've been putting out are, are awesome. You've been like the tutorial machine. 
 
David Noller  26:13  
You know, that's I decided this year that whenever anybody asked a question of how to I? Iwas going to instead of answering it, I was going to make them wait about two hours and create something that everybody can use. And one of the things that's going to be coming out hopefully tomorrow is how to convert your old Google classrooms to have a classroom page so that you can reuse those moving forward. And that's a whole new thing. And
 
Larry Burden  26:37  
the thing is, if you actually look through the entirety of these tutorials, your, your ability to navigate and make google classroom work for you as an educator is going to be upgraded significantly.
 
David Noller  26:50  
One of the most recent ones was the the student view of Google Classroom because I think there's some teachers that that want to see what it looks like for the kid before they're willing to jump in. And so that one's out there, and I have a YouTube channel that's connected with my school email account. I think my channel's just called David Noller. 
 
Larry Burden  27:08  
I do believe it is 
 
David Noller  27:09  
very creative.
 
Larry Burden  27:10  
There's a new Tell Me About It, a podcast with Jame McCall and Allison McBride-Culver coming out as well. And check back it's been a couple episodes ago, but the BiblioTech Halloween podcast, She's got some great, it's that time of the year, and she's got some great suggestions for books for kids of all ages. So In closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop, @TechNollerGist.
 
David Noller  27:33  
Ooh, yeah, excellent @TechNollerGist
 
Larry Burden  27:37  
subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud and the Google Play Store. leave a review. We love the feedback and remember,
 
you're never too old to play. 
 
David Noller  27:46  
That's so true.
 
Play a game tonight.
 

EdTech Loop Best Of! Failing to Fail

It’s another Time Travel episode of the EdTechLoop Podcast as we dive back in the Feed with Marty McFly’s DeLorean to Episode 36 Failing to Fail with Danelle Brostrom where we stop trying to be perfect, but endeavour to be useful. And if you find the pod useful, take a moment and subscribe and give us a rating on your app of choice and as always thanks for listening and inspiring! 
 
Danelle 0:26
We’re recording Right?
 
Danelle 0:32
think the word that I want to say.
 
Larry 0:36
I'm so confident I will not fail that I’m doing everything in sharpie.
 
Larry 0:51
It’s Episode 36 of the TCAPSLoop weekly podcast. My name is Larry Burden, and failing to be nominated for the Best ed tech podcast Grammy again this year. It's
 
Danelle 1:04
Danielle Brostrom 
 
Larry 1:05
see I like that, like that. You held it in.
 
Larry 1:08
I'm happy to be back in our usual day. 
 
Danelle
I know it's Tuesday
 
Larry
Tuesday is podcast day. 
 
Danelle
All right. Nice. 
 
Larry
Feeling into it, very into today. So um, how's it going? 
 
Danelle
It's going great. 
 
Larry
Anything new, anything exciting happening in your life? anything anything exciting?
 
Danelle 1:24
Well, today, we are starting the Launchpad, which is Traverse Heights maker space. So we're going to get some kids in there who have earned it and kind of see what they gravitate towards. My favorite part about maker spaces is getting in there and getting started. And then having the kids come in and say things like, why don't you have more Legos? Or, you really can use more duct tape? And then we go, oh, yeah, we need to get those things for the maker space. So I'm excited to get in, get kids in there, and hear their thoughts about what we're missing and what we need so we can get moving and grooving with some maker space stuff.
 
Larry 1:56
Get their minds goin’. 
 
Danelle
Yeah, exactly. 
 
Larry
So You know, our topic today is, is the failure of not failing. 
 
Danelle
Yeah. 
 
Larry
And I just want to come clean on something. So this month, I had been attempting to not do caffeine, or coffee. I, I failed this weekend. 
 
Danelle
That's Okay. 
 
Larry
And it was fabulous. It was absolutely fabulous. 
Moving on from that moment of Zen, it is that time. So get into your lotus position, clear your mind.
 
Larry 2:28
We are supposed to learn from our mistakes. But how can we learn If We are not allowed to make them?
 
Danelle 2:36
Perfect moment of zen for today, Larry.
 
Larry 2:41
So let's get our knives our forks and cut into the meat of the show. Failing. Why is it so important?
 
Danelle 2:50
This is such a hard topic. I hate failure. I hate failure. I, I was the kid that would write my homework in pen and get to the end and make a mistake. And instead of getting white out or scribbling it or just continuing I would get a brand new piece of paper and re copy the entire thing again. It really and I I struggle with this. And I think educators as a whole, we struggle with this because the stakes are so big. You know, the kids in your class, they have one shot at second grade, they have one shot at sixth grade. You have all of these pressures on you from you know, you don't want to let down your administrator. You don't want to let down those parents, you don't want to let down the community. You you've got all this state requirements and state testing and evaluations and just, there's so much on you that it's so scary to step outside the box. And it's so scary to take that that inch of a step because oh my gosh, what if I fail? What iF I mess things up? What if this is not the right move? And I don't know if other professions have this. But man, it is so scary for educators.
 
Larry 4:10
I think it's true in every profession, I think, you know, we've been talking about, or at least in education, community, failure, and allowing our students to fail and learning from our mistakes has been a topic that we've been kind of pushing, I guess, in education for a while now. I don't want to say we pay lip service to it. But I don't think we grasp how ingrained The, the structures are in place to not allow our kids to fail or to fight against that concept. And I think it's true. I was we were talking before the show, I had done a you know, I was attempting to do some research for this. And I did the TED Talk deep dive. And the topics in regards to failure are across the board, from from business, to technology to education, everybody's saying the same thing. They're all saying, we need to allow time for failure, we need to embrace failure. And they all kind of also say the same thing. But everything is working against us. So you know, keep, I guess, keep going. My question is why is it so important? Why are we saying this is something that we that we need to, you know, really shift the paradigm of how we educate, you know, getting away from that winning and being perfect to let's, let's embrace the the mistake.
 
Danelle 5:37
I think all the research is showing us that embracing the mistake is what our kids need. And it's how we move forward in the society. I definitely would point to the Carol Dweck, “The Growth Mindset” book, her idea of just that your your mind is continuing to grow and learn and move forward. And that's that's just kind of how things work. Now, like one of the most successful companies, Google, that you know about their x. Yeah, they have a
 
Larry 6:05
moonshot,
 
Danelle 6:06
moonshot factory, Yes, they have a portion of their company called x. And it's a moonshot factory, they, they dream and they dream big. And they try to break stuff. And they try to do everything that they can to fail, because when you fail, They know that failure is true learning. So when you fail, you are held up on stage and everyone claps for you. And you get a bonus, and you get a vacation and they say, go home, You did great try again tomorrow and come back with a new idea. Because they know that when you fail, you're kind of taking all those things that were awful. Like they talked about Google Glass, specifically, It was one of their failures that came out of x. They take all the things that they learned from that. And then they use that to make a better product the next time or to just come up with better ideas next time. And I think that we need to learn from from that moonshot factory, we need to learn from that The Carol Dweck book and from the whole maker mindset that says, Yeah, you should fail, you should fail miserably. And we know that there's a lot of things in education that needs to change. And that to get to true change, we probably need to break the system completely rebuilt from the ground up. But how do we do that, and that's so scary, and
 
Larry 7:20
We hold things, So many of those things that were used to precious. And one of the, one of the TED talks that I listened to, it was on the Google X and it was Astro Teller, who was talking, And one of the, which is a great name.
 
Larry 7:36
shocking that he's in engineering. Who would’ve thought?
 
Unknown 7:40
So one of the things, one of the comments that he made was, we go into every project thinking we're going to kill the project, you know, that is their, their, their mindset is they get a great idea. And then the rest of the time as they're developing it, They're trying to kill it. And that forces you away from taking the path of least resistance. Most of the time, we're when we're working on a project, We're always looking for the easiest solution, not the best solution. And by going the opposite direction, They end up getting oftentimes the best solution or at least working through most of the flaws, by the time they get to a workable solution. Another thing that you had kind of mentioned was where do we you know, kind of where do we start? How does it how do we build this and one of the one of the issues that I think we come up with or one of the issues we run into is we're typically used to scaffolding, We scaffold one thing above on top of the other, and it makes it a lot of sense is very linear, it's supportive. There's structure underneath it. The problem is there's turbulence underneath it, we're we're trying to build a structure during an earthquake. And the earthquake is constant now, there's there's so much fluctuation, there's so much change, there's so much input, that it's not like we know what the surface is, anymore. There's too much change there. So does the scaffolding technique. Though it makes sense? And it's very intuitive to us. It doesn't necessarily the or the question, I guess would be does it apply to our current circumstance? Is it it's a great system, If The foundation is solid? Do we have to recognize now that the foundation is no longer solid. So that system, it does not make sense any longer. I was listening to By the way, a fabulous TED Talk. Eddie Obeng, super high energy, super fun. But he that's what he was talking about his comment again, on the fact that there's so much turbulence underneath. And when we do get out of it, We're told all these wonderful things about being creative and thinking out of the box. I mean, I mean, that thinking out of the box concept, The problem is, be creative. But if you do crazy things, I'll fire you. You know, the same thing goes for and I'm going on here, but the same thing goes for our students, I think, you know, we want them to, We want them to fail, We want them to take chances and be creative. But then we every single structure that we have in education is counter to that. Here are your grades here, your test results, here's you know, it's so when that is built in from the start. It's hard to kind of be a high school student not be looking that direction. If The goal is winning, There's only one winner, and everyone has failed. If it is usefulness, If the goal is usefulness than anyone taking part in the solution is successful.
 
Danelle 10:32
I never thought about it that way. But you're 100% correct. And
 
Larry 10:34
I think that's that maker space mindset.
 
Danelle 10:37
Like we want kids to be messy and uncomfortable and in fail and fall flat on your face. But we've got grades, and we've got test scores, and we've got all these other things in place that are fighting against that all the time.
 
Larry 10:51
So Danielle, what's the solution? Because I think we can go on. Not that I'm expecting a solution. In fact, what I'd love, I'd love to have some input on this, because I think this is a really important question. And I think it's something that has to be acknowledged. I mean, we look at our ISTE standards, we go through our ISTE standards all the time, because I think they're they're good things empowered learner, digital citizen, knowledge constructor, innovative designer, computational thinker, creative communicator, global collaborator, These are not easily scaffolded goals. Not a one of them. This is not a plus b equals C, there isn't one of these goals that you can make simple supporting structures to get to. However, the failure mindset, the mistake mindset, Oh, that all kind of makes sense. It all kind of leads into into these. How do we allow the time maybe that's a good place to start? How do we allow time to fail?
 
Danelle 11:48
You have to how do we not allow time to fail? We can't, we would do our kids a giant disservice if we don't allow that time to fail.
 
Larry 11:56
But it's an efficient, Daniel, it's not.
 
Danelle 11:59
You have to look at the long game though. They need this stuff. And we need to be talking with our kids. Like, when when I sit down with my with my daughter, and I say, let me tell you, mommy was really good to try to meditate. She was gonna try meditation. And I've gotten there twice. And It was awesome both times I did it. But that was going to be my goal. So telling her man, I failed at this, but I didn't fail because I learned so what did I learn? Okay, I learned that. And I talked with her about different structures that I'm going to put in place so that way I can do this or change my goal, or I think you just constantly have to be showing kids and I guess this top down, it's, you know, administrators, giving the teachers the get out of fail free card and telling them I want you to fail, I want you to try things and the teachers telling the kids, you know, I tried this and I failed. And here's how yucky it felt uncomfortable. But here's why No, it was good. Because I know that I learned and like this fits right into math, and it fits right into everything we want our kids to be doing, I think you you don't have an option. I mean, you just can't not do this with your kids.
 
Larry 13:10
When they get to that high school level, that middle school level and they've been indoctrinated into a if they were indoctrinated into a failure is good. Failure does not mean you're a loser failure actually means you're a winner if you're acknowledging it. And when they get into that middle school, when they're starting to really think for themselves, and you know, their, their self esteem isn't necessarily tied directly to what their parents say, having the strength of confidence that if they do make a mistake, it's good, as opposed to something that's going to be a hit to their self esteem. I think for their social socio emotional health, social emotional health, and well being. Having the mistake, the failure mindset be ingrained would be just just a wonderful thing. In their growth, I think they would grow much faster emotionally. If they went into, if they went into those years and into their adulthood with that failure mindset again, And You said it earlier? The long view, you know, kind of that long game in mind.
 
Danelle 14:14
Yeah, 100%.
 
Larry 14:16
I don't think we have any solutions here. Do we have any solutions here?
 
Danelle 14:19
We don't have any solutions. But we do. I mean, I would offer people to check out the “Growth Mindset” book. Check out the Astro Teller TED talk about x, the podcasts “Failure is an Option” by NPR Radio Hour, that was a really good summary of failure with a bunch of different stories. Check out some stuff on the maker movement because the maker movement is really really good at pushing this failure idea. So um, the AJ Giuliani's and the John Spencer's, They talk about failure a lot. And I would just do some learning for yourself about what it means to fail.
 
Larry 14:54
There's a there's a ton of TED talks that I will link to the show notes as well, that talk about this. It's it's really something it's a it's a restart, it is a reset in many ways. And I'm not necessarily a big fan of the full revolution tear down so we can build it back up. And actually, I take I take that back. Actually, I kind of am. To some extent, I don't think it needs to be a violent act, necessarily. But I think there's some there's something to be said for deconstruction sometimes. And I think we might need to take a hard look at that.
 
Danelle 15:24
You said that much more eloquently. That's what I meant, Larry.
 
Larry 15:29
So is there anything else you do have a lot of notes and I don't want to do,
 
Danelle 15:33
I have a lot of notes that are all about my failing is important. So we covered it.
 
Larry 15:38
Alright, so Tech Tool of the Week,
 
Danelle 15:39
Tech Tool of the Week, I'm super excited to check out this tech tool, Adobe Spark just released a big new thing that they are now free for students. So getting kids on Adobe Spark to do some digital storytelling. It's a pretty powerful graphic video stories, web page, graphic design programs. So I'm really excited to get some kids on here, specifically with the maker space and have them work on some digital storytelling. So I'm really excited that Adobe Spark is now free for students and has special things in place for under 13. So I can definitely use this with my kiddos.
 
Larry 16:18
This looks like fun. 
 
Danelle 16:19
Yeah, I know,
 
Larry 16:20
Adobe makes great products, as we know. And usually a lot of times they're professional products in Spark is a great creative product by a company that understands how Creatives think this is cool. I can't wait to wait to see how you talk to other educators about implementing this in their classroom.
 
Danelle 16:40
I will say, I just read about it yesterday. So I'm really excited to get in there and test with some students today. So this is like brand new. All right. Ted, Ted talk about Tech, Tech Tool of the Week. Fail.
 
Larry 16:56
Tutorials and updates. I'm hoping to do a Baumann Certified this week. Maybe. I know there's an email in my inbox. We'll see if he if that's going to work out. Filming Vex Robotics at West Senior High. It is robotic season.
 
Danelle 17:10
It is Robotics Season
 
Larry 17:10
Gonna do some interviewing of some students and see what they're doing. You had mentioned earlier Traverse Heights Launchpad, plan on doing a segment and the Launch pad next week. Super excited about that. In closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop at @Brostromda and check out the TCAPSLoop blog at tcapsloop.tcaps.net. Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, and the Google Play Store. leave a review. We love the feedback.
 
You're listening and inspiring.
 
Music by Podington Bear

Best Of BiblioTech: Ep. 1 - Brianne Farley

It was Podcast moving day last week and the EdTechLoop Pod is happy to now be hosted by Podbean! However all the archived shows did not make it through the move so over the next few weeks before the school year begins I plan to post some of our most popular past episodes starting with the very first BiblioTech podcast featuring local writer and illustrator Brianne Farley. Please excuse the poor audio quality, we hadn’t dialed the studio or editing in yet but the interview is too good to not have on the feed. And as always, thanks for listening and inspiring.
Please forgive the first attempt to transcribe the podcast. As always, we will strive to improve.
0:00 - Stephie
This is Brianne Farley, and she is an author and illustrator, and a local Traverse City Area Public Schools, alumni, we're gonna chat today.
 
0:37 - Stephie
What’s your background, your educational background and career, what your career path has been. And if you want to look, you know, in when I say educational background. Back in elementary school, the experiences you had an elementary school how those have carried along with you and how you ended up in the career that you're in. Okay.
 
1:02 - Brianne 
All right. Well, I started. Well when I moved up here to Traverse City when I was seven, and I started Old Mission, and we live actually right, my parents live right behind Old Mission.
 
Yeah okay and that's like the world's best playground. I think when I did when I first did a visit at Old Mission with my book that's like, all I talked to the kids about was, I was like, tell me about your playground. Is it the coolest is the pond still haunted. and they're like, No, and I was like, It’s still haunted.
 
1:37 - Brianne
And so I went to Old Mission and then, and then I went to the talented and gifted program at Central. And then, yeah and I went to East, Central High School, and 
 
Stephie
When did you graduate?
 
Brianne
I graduated in ‘02. Yeah, I was the first class after the split. Okay, yeah. 
 
Stephie
So one year after split. 
 
Brianne
yeah yeah one year to split, and.
 
2:06 - Brianne 
And then I went to McAllister college actually on the recommendation of my principal, Mr. Townsend, 
 
Stephie
Mr Townsend Yeah, yeah, 
 
Brianne
Funny enough, he’s been my principal since elementary school. Interesting. He kept moving up as I graduated and so yeah he’s been my principal forever and then you say, also go to college here. 
 
Stephie
And then he and he promoted your book for you.
 
2:35 - Brianne 
Yeah. Yeah, he's my publicist.
 
2:40 - Stephie
he's a great person 
 
Brianne
he is great. He's so great. Um, and then after McAllister, I 
 
Stephie
What was your focus there. 
 
Brianne
Oh I went there for English. I like knew that I wanted to be an editor. And so I went for English and I really loved, art, but I thought that for some reason I had this idea that if I made art my career I would hate it, like, like you said, like the pressure of having to make something that makes me not like it anymore. So I really loved reading I loved books as a total bookworm growing up and, and so I knew I wanted to be an editor and then I went off to New York after a year of college, and did an editorial internship and totally hated it. Yeah. I really hated it. And 
 
Stephie
What do you think it was. Did you find it too technical or too, was it, work was mundane?
 
Brianne
I was at a very small publishing house. And so I think that having a little bit of a different view of what editing was then what I saw at this house and which actually is probably not very accurate it's like how other houses edit but, um, yeah it was like it was a little too mundane it was I thought that I was going to be like in the trenches with the writers like helping them like what if you used this other word here and, and that's not what it was at this house.
 
4:13 - Stephie
Did you have much contact with authors. 
 
Brianne
No, no, no. Yeah, it ended up being this very I mean it was like an internship, they were like yeah like organize our computer. Like, this is what editing is. So then, I, I was an art minor and then I went down to Chicago and was working at the Art Institute there and was an administrative assistant. 
 
Stephie
Okay, did you like that. 
 
Brianne
I really did yeah, that was a great job. The best part about it was that you could take classes for free at the School of the Art Institute. Yeah, so I started taking more classes and then I did a residency and, and then, was like why am I doing this is I should really, realy make that happen so I applied for grad school and went to SCAD for illustration and SCAD is the Savannah College of Art and Design.
 
Stephie
Georgia?
 
Brianne
Georgia. Yeah. 
 
Stephie
And your focus was the illustration, and had that been your interest? Would you say, Did you find that and trust when you're in Chicago?
 
Brianne
No I, well, a little bit I had grown up loving Roald Dahl and Quinten Blake, and I'd actually went to his at TAG we had to write a speech every year about when I grow up, do they still do that? they should still do that because it tells you what you want to be when you grow up. ‘Cause that’s what I wrote my speech about. I was like, I want to be Roald Dahl and Quentin Blake. Although I guess the year before I said I wanted to be Benjamin Franklin and that didn't pan out.
 
Stephie
There’s still time
 
6:01 - Brianne
to be a founding father. It could still happen.
 
6:06 - Brianne
Yeah, so I said that that's what I wanted to do so. I think that that kind of stuck with me.
 
Stephie
As an illustrator, do you focus in a certain medium, or you explain that, like, what, what would an illustrator, what would that look like, like what classes did you take? What kind of a focus in your art education, did you have? 
Brianne
Well, um, I think I lucked out, knowing that I was interested in children's books going into it. Because I was able to kind of tailor my graduate experience toward children's books, and actually my first book was a homework assignment in grad school, I took a class called directed projects which is basically, it's like a directed free-for-all, like, you pick a project that you want to do over the course of the whole semester. And, and it has to be a series of some sort of some people that like branding, like they've made up a brewery and branding, like you know made several different kinds of beer labels or something and, and I picked a kids book and... 
 
Stephie
And did that become Ike? 
 
Brianne
Yeah that became “Ike’s Incredible Ink.” Yeah, do your homework kids.
 
7:30 - Stephie
So, that was what year of school. How long have you been in? 
 
Brianne
That, it's a two year program and that was the first quarter of my second year there. 
 
Stephie
So, from that homework assignment, how did they get from there to the published book? 
 
Brianne
Gosh, like a combination of super hard work and crazy good luck. Like anything in life. I kind of hit the ground running with this project and got...I was able to finish the entire book in the whole in 10 weeks. And you were only supposed to do three interior spreads and a cover, and I was, I don't know crazy person was like I'll do all of it and, so, which ended up being great, because I had; so Peter Brown, who's a author, Illustrator, he was coming to SKAD to give a presentation, and at the same time I knew that my friend Ryan who I was in grad school with had a friend Pete who was coming to town, I didn't realize that these are the same person. And so I was sitting in the grad studio at SKAD doing my work working on Ike, and Pete and Ryan came in we were hanging out and talking and then my professor walked in and he was like, oh, Brianne I see you’ve met Peter Brown. He's like, you should have them look at your book, and I was like, Oh, (laughing) okay. And so he took a look at it and send it to his agent and the agent liked it and now here we are. And now Peter’s one of my closest friends so that worked out to, socially.
 
9:21 - Stephie
Okay, so what were some of the steps like so then agents said, I really like this. Then what?
 
Brianne
Well, that's the trick with kids books is that you. It's very rare that you get your book published without an agent. Without an agent your manuscript goes into the slush pile they call it which is like about as organized as it sounds, but with an agent, you have all these doors open where the agent is kind of the first gatekeeper and they kind of carry a stable of people that whose work they like. And then they will go into the publishing companies and either in person or by email kind of promote your work and say like this is something that we're working on. We think that it would be a good match for you so they'll kind of try to pair you up with a, with an editor. And then the editor is usually the one that does the acquiring till they find a manuscript that they like that can either. If you're an author illustrator they'll have some sample drawings with the manuscripts and this year, just an author, it won't have any illustrations with it.
 
10:28 - Stephie
So from the time that it went to an agent and was selected, how long does it take typically or did it take for your book for your first book?
 
Brianne
Um, for my first book. It took about a year from, my agent is Paul Rodine, and it took about a year from when Paul picked it up to when Candlewick said hooray, we want your book. But it can go much faster than that. I don't, I don't know how long it takes us first books but yeah that's what happened with mine.
 
Stephie
And then it was published how soon after that?
 
11:09 - Brianne
Um, let's see well that was another funny one because that I had, you know, finished a book basically and then had to kind of go back to square one with their suggestions and revisions. But I think the whole process took maybe another, not quite another year altogether and then it takes another year to actually get public, come out into bookstores. So, like I finished this book “Secret Tree Fort” in April. Last April, and it comes out this coming April. Yeah.
 
11:50 - Stephie
And I can't wait to talk about that.
 
11:53 - Brianne
For Ike, having it published. So tell us about what it's like, it's in bookstores. Did you do a book tour? Did you get to talk with kids, I get to talk with kids. I didn't do a book tour that the publishing company sent me on or anything, I would, kind of, I'm going to get caught by the IRS telling you this but like, if I ever wanted to go on a trip I would call up a bookstore and be like, Hello, and just start writing off this trip.
 
But yeah, it was great, bookstores are really happy to have you because you're free and you help sell their books and you're kind of like an hour long babysitter. And then schools are great too I am, I was able to do a bunch of school visits with TCAPS last spring, yeah, it was. 
 
Stephie
The weather was a little iffy, yeah.
 
12:52 - Brianne
Yeah, somewhere in there 
 
Stephie
It could have been arranged in November.
 
Brianne
Could be anytime.
 
12:59 - Brianne
But, yeah, it's wonderful , the kids provide a lot of good feedback and you get to see like what they respond to and what they're interested in.
 
13:10 - Stephie
Do you have any like best quotes from kids a lot along the way about your book or funny questions?
 
13:20 - Brianne
When I first started, hats off to the  teachers, I like knew nothing about crowd control and like what questions you could ask kids and whatnot, like, like you can't just be like, How are you, because they'll be like, “I'm going to a birthday party and there's a swimming pool and…”
 
And that was actually my very first reading as a kid raised his hand and said, “I'm going to a birthday party.”
 
Anyway, let me see, at the end of the presentations I draw a rocket with the kids and I like to tell them that they can that I'm going to draw Ike inside of the rocket but that they can draw whoever they want and I had a little kid, tell me that they're putting their grandma in the rocket to the moon, like I'm going to send my grandmother to the moon.
 
14:08 - Stephie
What happened with that. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, so they yeah this is some pretty some pretty great stuff. I've also been really blown away with the other end of things, kids being like, so how do I get an agent? What's the difference between self publishing a published book? Who are you? 
 
Stephie
Like a little kid. I mean some of those. 
 
Brianne
Some of those questions came from like fifth graders but I was really impressed that they even...
 
14:38 - Stephie
When you're young, did you write for fun and to illustrate books for fun? 
 
Brianne
Yeah, yeah. I actually, when I was in third grade. Our Old Mission did a program where you could write a book and the library would bind it and have like put a bar code on it and have it in the library and anybody could check it out. So that was really inspiring I got to do that. 
 
Stephie
Do remember what you wrote for that book? 
 
Brianne
Yeah, it was a book called, Trees are Homes, and I distinctly remember making the cover first and then kind, of just plowing my way through the rest of the book and the book kind of like taking a turn somewhere and then like not really being about that by the end.
 
Stephie
But cover was set.
 
Brianne
Trees are Homes, and it was like animals live in trees, so you should recycle, recycling's good, boy do I like paper, it just kinda like wandered.
 
15:37 - Stephie
Do you remember checking out friends books and like having friends check out your book. Do you remember having like... 
 
Brianne
I do remember. I do remember going into the library and checking to see if anyone had checked out my book. Yeah, it's like the first version of like social media, any likes?
 
15:58 - Stephie
Well, that must be an amazing experience, now to see, Ike, and to see, Secret Tree Fort. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, it's crazy like it when, when Ike first came out, I was on a road trip and stopped at this Barnes and Noble in the middle of nowhere and found it. Yeah, and one of my good friends lives in Anchorage, and she sent me a photo of like in her local library, and I was like, “oh, thanks for donating that book to your library,” and she was like, “it was just here.”
 
16:31 - Stephie
So “Secret Tree Fort,” comes out in April. Can you tell us a little bit about it? 
 
Brianne
Sure, it's about, about two sisters and older sister just wants to read and the younger sister wants to the older sister to play with her. 
 
Stephie
Does this have any connection to your own life? 
 
Brianne
Oh yeah, it's incredibly biographical. This is me never wanting to put down a book. And this is my younger sister, little toe head, her being very energetic and wanting to play and we actually we did play together as kids, and when we did play a lot of what we did was plan tree forts, or tree houses we would have drawings of like okay on the third floor will have the observation deck and then the slide will lead to the pool. And we'd be like dad. Let's do this.
 
17:27 - Stephie
Did you have a tree fort? 
 
Brianne
We did, we did, it was a, it was a box in a tree but it did have a zip line. Yeah that's all you need.
 
17:37 - Stephie
You just need a little, little bit of wood in a tree in your house. Yeah. Yeah. So illustration wise, did you use a similar sort of process when you were working on this book?
 
Brianne
No, not at all. I did a lot of print-making at McAllister this great printmaking professor, and I somehow I didn't even know that print-making existed before I got there. And she kind of opened up this whole world they really fell in love with it and so I guess I think a lot of my work is informed by printmaking but maybe by different processes. So, the first book is about a blob of ink who can somehow get up and walk. And so it's about ink and paper and craft and like making things with their hands so I wanted it to be made with ink and paper so it's it's ink line work and collaged paper that's actually collaged digitally. And then this is also kind of made digitally, I drew the book with charcoal and pencil and different layers. Okay, different pieces of paper so like the outline will be a piece of paper and then like the texture will be on another piece of paper and then I scan it all into the computer and color it digitally, which is a total headache. I don't know why I work like that but…
Stephie
What made you choose to do it that way does it give you more options. 
 
19:11 - Brianne
Yeah, I think I really love getting the color right and the texture right is really important to me and I like it when the color and the format of the book kind of helps you tell the story. So, in this book, the younger sister is telling her older sister about this tree forth that she has that, you know, as she talks you kind of see the tree fruit in the background like growing floors and slides and the whale observation area. And, and I wanted to kind of, kind of interacting with an imaginary environment and I wanted there to be some visual cue that was like, “This isn't real.” “And this is real.” And so I made this real for myself that everything that was real would be very muted, and everything was imaginary you can be these technicolors, and the computer let you kind of set that up and play with it.
 
20:12 - Stephie
Did you enjoy that process? So, you know, very different from Ike. Did you enjoy doing it that way and was it a lesson to be learned would you do it that way again.
 
20:27 - Brianne
I don't know, actually, it’s funny that you ask. I had a publisher contact me and asked me to submit a sample of work and I like can you make it just like how you made “Secret Tree Fort,” and I was like, ugh. Okay, maybe if I was a better artist I wouldn't need to do it that way but it's like, I need to fuss with it forever to be like, oh no I made this tree dark so then this tree has to be light so then this part has to be more colorful but I don't know if I do it again. It's definitely really fun to work like that it's kind of like how you build a screen print. Yeah, I like that. I love the look of it. Yeah, and I love the control but, boy is it time consuming.
 
21:20 - Stephie
What I’ve seen of it, it’s beautiful. So when this book comes out will it be the same thing when you visit schools again, and maybe get a few bookstores at some exotic locations?
 
21:31 - Brianne
Hopefully, yeah. Yeah, I love doing school visits it's really, really fun. Yeah, I love doing the school visits, it's kind of like the opposite of sitting alone and drawing. Standing up in front of an auditorium of eight year olds.
 
21:54 - Stephie
When you mentioned that, that being alone and working, I know that you've been involved with A26. And can you tell us a little bit about, first what that is and what you've done. 
 
Brianne
Sure. A26 is an amazing organization and I know that you said that Front Street Writers is kind of a little bit near it. A26 was started by the writer Dave Eggers and legend has it that he wanted to start a tutoring program in San Francisco and bought a commercial space, and then was told that, because it was a commercial space and zoned commercially it had to sell something and it couldn't just be a tutoring center and so he was like great we sell pirate supplies. And so the front of the store sold pirate supplies in the back of the store…
 
Stephie
I love that it happened that way.
 
22:50 - Brianne
Yeah, so then they were really surprised to find out the pirate supply section of the store kind of helped the kids, like it made it this like, very special space and it also helped take away the stigma like meeting after school homework assistance or like taking an extra writing class just for fun. I'm a big dork, that’s something I would do. And so, it helped with that and then also it was bringing in people from the neighborhood to be like, what is this place? And that led to people volunteering just because they like walked in to see what the Pirate Store was about. And then the revenue from selling like a tub of lard pays the rent on the stores. Yeah, so now it's nationwide and all of the stores had like a front and then there's a secret tutoring center in the background. So I think they want in Michigan, haven't been a robot repair shop. 
 
Stephie
Yeah, yeah, Seattle is time travelers. I think there's a Bigfoot one. What’s New York?. 
 
Brianne
It’s the superhero supply store. I first got involved with the one in Chicago, which is the spy supply store. 
 
Stephie
Yeah, I just love to go in one.
 
Brianne
Yeah, yeah, it's the one in Chicago so funny that it has the sign out in front, that's like, nothing to see here, nobody needs to come in, you don't need anything. And for a while I had to change it because it was like two effective people are like, Oh, yeah.
 
24:18 - Stephie
And so did you do workshops there? 
 
Brianne
Yeah, yeah, I did a comic book writing workshop and autobiographical comic book ratings that was great. And also the one. Oh, we did block printing with character descriptions so I had the kids make black print of face, and they wrote a character description of it and then they all traded prints and then wrote a description of that someone else's portrait. It's really fun activity Yeah.
 
Stephie
So thinking about working with kids and, have you thought about, like, doing something more like that doing more workshops with kids is that an area that you might pursue? 
 
Brianne
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. That's the great part about living here now is I have all this extra time I was, I was working. When I first moved to New York I was working for random houses, uh, well first as an administrative assistant and then there's a book designer. And then I left to do more illustration but came as rehired as a freelance designer so I was working there part time. And then, and now that I live here, I can have a little bit more time on my hands, because I’m not working at Random House.
 
Stephie
So right now are you do your projects in the pipeline that are working on?
 
Brianne
I do. I don't know what am I allowed to share. I'm working on getting my promotional plan ready for it Secret Tree Fort. You start kind of amping that up about three months out but you have to know what you're going to do before the three months are here. And, and then I signed up to do it I can tell you about this. I signed up to do a book called “Charlotte the Scientist is Squished,” and that's my first book that I’m just illustrating in not writing on hey yeah. 
 
Stephie
So where is that in the process?
 
Brianne
That is signed up...
 
Stephie
Sorry to interrupt you. How did you get connected to that book? Did the author see your work? 
 
Brianne
No, that's, um, gosh that's another book was like, yeah, and like, usually it happens this way but I don't, that’s not how it happened for me, usually an author submits their manuscript to a publishing company and then the editor buys the manuscript, and then the editor and the art director work together to find an illustrator. But in this case, my agent represents the author and, and I had told my agent that I wanted, I was like I'd really like to try illustrating somebody else's manuscript. And I said, we've got this manuscript do you want to illustrate it and we'll send it out to publishers that way and I like there's no guarantee, they like they might drop your illustrations, like, whatever. Yeah yeah so that's how I got connected.
 
27:29 - Stephie
So, and that book will be coming out like I said a couple years away. 
Brianne
That'll be coming out in spring ‘17. 
 
Stephie
Okay, I’m excited to see it.
 
27:42 - Brianne
Yeah, me too. It's on the manuscript is being edited right now and is with the author. And as soon as they finalize the manuscript then I get a hold of it.
 
27:55 - Stephie
Will you be working on that here? will you be back in New York? Or can you work anywhere?
 
Brianne
Oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, I can work anywhere. That's great anywhere that has Wi Fi and a flat surface. 
 
28:11 - Stephie
Besides, what you've done in the book form,where else has your art appeared, what other format? Tell us about, tell us about your art, separate from books? 
 
Brianne
Um, well, I did a couple publications with, I did a drawing for McSweeney's, and for the New York Times, did one for them. So I've done a couple editorial pieces here and there, but I found that editorial is like, kind of this constant, you need to keep reminding our directors that you're around, and I just I love doing children's book so much that I'd rather spend my time doing that. 
 
Stephie
That's really your passion. 
 
Brianne
It is it's so great, it's like it's like don't tell any other illustrators but it's like you get to, basically, you're like free rein you have like 32 pages to just go nuts, and with editorial it's really really fast turnaround and people make beautiful stuff. I really have a deep admiration for editorial illustrators but and I don't work that way very well.
 
Stephie
But it's gonna work, what you enjoy. 
 
Brianne
Yeah. Yeah. can anybody see your art around town?
 
29:25 - Brianne
Oh, the Little Fleet. Yeah. That was the best job. Yeah, I did the mural at Little Fleet.
 
29:35 - Stephie
Tell us about that process?
 
Brianne
You introduced me to Allison. And Allison was so great. She actually, it was so funny because they had just moved here from Brooklyn, and I was living in Brooklyn, at the time, and she was like, oh yeah, she sent me a couple images of what she was interested in and she was like we want these free hand kind of line drawings on our wall, and I started sending her sketches and she's like, can you know, can you just come in and like, do crazy stuff all over the wall. It's like, Oh yeah, totally. 
 
Stephie
And you did it. Tell us about like the actual process where people there? 
 
Brianne
Oh yeah, they... I started at 11 in the morning so I got all set up before anybody came in, and then I just worked the whole day. And it was, yeah, there are people there and watching and luckily I was up on a ladder, with my back to everybody. I wasn’t too aware of anyone watching. That's pretty good. Yeah, and you're adorable daughter was there,
 
Stephie
She does love knowing there's.
 
30:47 - Briane
It's their balloon.
 
30:50 - Stephie
Did you? It has it looked like watching it that that you had planned out where things would go because everything fits so nicely, like how much pre-planning... 
 
Brianne
Smoke and mirrors. 
 
Stephie
Definitely. It looks that way. But can you just like did you look at this face and you're able to just, I mean how much of that was planned ahead in your mind and how much of it, and I mean I like out of  the blue here.
Brianne
They told me that they wanted some like goofy characters and I've actually painted my bathroom in New York with chalkboard paint and had been actually like the week that she contacted me had filled my bathroom wall with these like crazy characters, and I sent her a photo of it and she was like, yeah, that's what we want. That works out well. So I had a kind of a eight and a half by 11 piece of paper with just some doodles on it and like character ideas, but all the layout was done on the fly. It was fun, it was exhausting. I think the only thing I knew going into it was that I wanted to have all of the characters marching in one direction because I wanted them to be like a fleet. Yeah, and I wanted to put that there's a cherry with a face in it that I knew that I wanted to up there, but...
 
Stephie
You obviously such an eye and experience. Was it nerve racking to do in front of people? And maybe we're looking back to people but have you ever painted like in a public setting? 
 
Brianne
No, no. You know, I think I would have been, you know, if someone had come up to me and said, will you draw my portrait that would have terrified me but the fact that she was like, draw these crazy characters that you love drawing. I think that made it fine. 
 
Stephie 
Did you go back and change anything, or was it just as is.
 
32:56 - Brianne
No, Yeah, I think one girl I kind of made for myself was that I would get off the ladder as often as possible so that I could step back and look at it from a distance. I think that really helped. But for the most part if I, I kind of saw how things were fitting together as I was moving from left to right. But yeah, I think I did have a little freak out in the beginning, so I wasn't really sure about the paint. The paint was like going on the wall and was really weird way like I felt slimy and I was like this is terrible, like, no one told me that painting on a wall it feels different than drawing with the marker.
 
33:41 - Stephie
So that was your first time painting, something like that, of that scale?
 
33:46 - Brianne
Yeah, but now I love it funny. Yeah, I would love to do it again.
 
34:03 - Stephie
Okay. So switching gears a little bit. I'd love to talk about books and libraries, in particular. I mean we touched a little bit on the book project that you did at Old Mission but what are some of the things you remember now that you're, you know, in your career and following your passion for what you're doing and looking back at you know school libraries, public libraries and books in general I know you're a big reader and always were. What are some of the experiences you remember, and in what ways do you think school libraries and libraries in particular impacted you? Or some of your memories? 
 
Brianne
Good question. I guess, I have really fond memories of my librarians feet, you know, she would kind of sit on like a big armchair and everyone would kind of like crowd around. I just, I remember I loved that, like intimacy of like being read to. Really wanting to know what happened next, like, I remember the librarian at Central reading us “The Giver” and just being like, oh, when I found out that it was color that had been missing I was like, “What!” stop everything. Being read to it's just so special and it really brings the books to life, and, and I found I was really surprised when I visited schools that told me that I was going to be presenting to first graders as well as fifth graders. It's like I hope this presentation works for all ages. And I was really surprised by how engaged the fifth graders were that they still love being read to and enjoy picture books and just get something totally different out of it. 
 
Stephie
Absolutely, yeah. picture books are, they hit  kids at all different levels. And some of them are really, and, and maybe not in particular yours but some are geared, really there's middle school kids and some projects that there are picture books that are at that level, I mean in the details well as, What's the subject and it's quite mature. It's always thought of as her very young children. The format is really not necessarily that way.
 
Brianne
You know I really think that's a mistake, actually I find myself when I talk about books trying not to say, kids books. I tried to say picture books cuz i mean i think that a lot of them are for audiences of all ages and that, and that booksellers are making a mistake kind of pigeon holing what age range, they can present to.Have you ever seen this book? Death, Duck, and the Tulip by Wolf Elbrooke? I think it's his name. He's a German guy. European kids books, they're like crazy like boobs, and there's all kinds of stuff in there. They’re a little bit edgier. It’s about a duck that meets death, and they kind of hang out together and then at the end of the book the duck dies, and that’s whole book and it's like really beautiful and, and just kind of like, this is what happens. Sometimes things die. And so it's like, I think it would be good. And it really struck me, you know, a certain age. Yeah, that was really really powerful, yeah. A good thing for kids of all ages.
 
Stephie
I don't think that kids stop needing to be or stuff enjoying to be read to. It's not, it doesn't end in fifth grade. Middle School, even when even High School, and the adults. Yeah, being read to is something that's pretty universal. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, it's very soothing to be read to even as an adult, it's nice to have someone just read something out loud. And, and I think that you get you get access to, you know, like words that you might not normally hear read out loud, like you're like, Oh, it's not hors d'oeuvres? Yeah, I think, I think it's really important and I think, yeah, I think that there's I actually I find myself having a little bit of a hard time talking about like, like what my favorite picture books are because I'm like there’s the books that I love as a kid. And then there's the books that I love now, and I don't have, I don't have kids and so like I don't really know what it is that kids respond to and Charlotte who I work with at Smith and Jones studios she brought in this whole stack, she, she labeled them a post it notes and she's like these are good books. These are terrible books.
 
39:10 - Stephie
Like, what made those terrible? Was it content, they were boring was it…?
 
Brianne
Yeah, I mean, I think some of it was. I mean picture books I such a hard audience because you're appealing to a very young child and the parent that has to read it one hundred times in a row. And so I think some of them were books for her kids love them and she was like, I never want to see these books again. Yeah, yeah, but so I don't have that, I don't know I don't have the input of actual little kids so I'm going off like this is a beautiful book. I'm touched by this book, I don't know if kids would actually like it.
 
39:47 - Stephie
So the unfair question. What were some of your favorite books as now and as a kid, and not just picture books like what are some of your, you mentioned the Giver, just favorite books? 
 
Brianne
I think the first book I remember being just obsessed with was the BFG Roald Dahl, and I loved that book. And then I went and read everything of Roald Dahl’s that I could find. He's super talented and dark. I love that too. Yeah. And I think as a kid I really, I really liked Sneeches by Dr. Seuss and, oh, Just a Dream by Chris Van Alsberg. That probably inspired Trees are Homes. Protect your environment. And what else: Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, anything by Maurice Sendeck, the Little Bear books, and Where the Wild Things Are, Go Dog! Go! I recently re-read that and was like this book is brilliant. Yeah. And, and now...There's so much out there. Again, I'm like, I don't know if kids like these are not, but Greg Pizzoli is really great author, Illustrator. He just said a book about the “Watermelon Seed.” Okay, about a crocodile that follows a watermelon seed and Pool by, oh gosh, JHyeon Lee I think is her name and I think that that just one has a magical place in New York called the Society of illustrators and that's a museum slash art studio, that's just illustrations, And they hold, they do separate several competitions throughout the year but there's the original art show is just for children's books. And I think that that just won the original art show. It's a really cool space it's like this little converted townhouse, and it's kind of bright red door so you feel like you're kind of walking into a magical home. 
Stephie
Wow, great, things like that are celebrated. What a wonderful spot to celebrate that kind of creativity.
 
42:16 - Brianne
That's the thing I miss most about Brooklyn is that a lot of my friends also wrote and illustrated book so they've also got some really beautiful books coming out.
 
Stephie
And their titles, you can share?
 
Brianne
Yeah. Um, let's see, Ruth Chan has her first book coming out which is, “Where's the Party,” which is about a cat that wants to throw a party but then all of his friends are busy. And it's based on her real cat Georgie. And let's see, my friend, Dasha Tolstikova has this really beautiful illustrated novel coming out I guess that's what you call it so it's long but it's not really a graphic novel, probably like a hundred pages, “A Year Without Mom.” And that's about when she grew up in Russia and her mom moved to America, and she stayed in Russia for another year and then followed her mom so it's about that year, she's 13. 
 
Stephie
So, like a middle grade, Middle School? 
 
Brianne
Yeah, probably for like that same age group, 12-13. And she's also got a couple of picture books coming out “The Jacket.” She illustrated and that's like doing really, really well. It's a, it's a book about a girl who, I guess it's about a book, who, a girl buys the book and he's so happy to have someone who loves them. It’s so cute.
 
43:44 - Stephie
So, yeah. Any other thoughts on experiences you remember, projects you did that standout related to books or illustration in school, other experiences in other schools or libraries that you remember?
 
44:00 - Brianne
Well, each. And, and the librarians and I think I was really lucky to be in that talented and gifted program they have a lot of really great like kind of interactive projects where you are encouraged to write and, and draw, or they would maybe give you like several options of how to complete a project which I think is really great for kids learn and express themselves in different ways so you could either you know like, put on a play or like make a board game. I think that's always the one I chose like make some stuff with your hands, you could make, like, a little sculpture. I remember really loving my science classes, because I like making all the models. 
 
Stephie
Sure, yeah, it's interesting isn't it like even as a small, small young learner like those things that carry through, things that you love, you know, they might change, but some of those things stay. They are  what is important to you even as an adult.
 
45:11 - Stephie
Well, are there, anything is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to share.
 
45:17 - Brianne
I can think of any. Any ideas?.
 
45:20 - Larry
Okay, so the voice from the other side of the monitor. There, there are three questions I want to ask if you have the time. The first one I was fascinated by the conversation you guys had about picture, picture books, not being available, or is this something with the authors and publishers now making picture books for adults. First of all, was that their coffee table books, but not really because oftentimes, coffee table books don't contain a narrative. There more non-fiction. There might be a correlation between and especially for high school readers that correlation between picture books, and then read and students that have enjoyed picture books then graduating to graphic novels yeah I mentioned graphic novels and I wanted to know if you felt there was a connection there between the picture book and the graphic novel. 
 
Brianne
Definitely, I think that and I think graphic novels are really filling a hole that's been present in, in the books that are available that that graphic novels aren't just like superhero graphic novels anymore that you can get like these really beautiful narratives that, I think that this is the first year that a graphic novel won, oh gosh, I'm going to get it wrong, some big literary prize was won by a graphic novel this year 
 
Stephie
For kids or adults? 
 
Brianne
For kids it's like the Caldicot of, and I'm going to show you like such a dummy, I have to figure out what it is but it was like the Newbery, Yeah, 
 
Stephie
El Daffo, I think it was an honor. 
 
Brianne
Was it an honor? 
 
Stephie
We’ll have to crack this detail, definitely.
 
47:10 - Brianne
It's a great book, you should check it 
 
Stephie
It’s in our elementary libraries.
 
47:17 - Brianne
Because you can read it, like, I read it sitting in a cafe. You know the whole thing. 
 
Stephie
Our libraries just received a donation from AAUW, for the book “Roller Girl.”
 
Brianne
I heard it’s wonderful.
 
47:30 - Stephie
Yes, and it has wonderful messages for young girls. But it was. I'm guessing it was the first time we've had from that group, a graphic novel donated which, you know, there's so much more. Yeah, the quality of graphic novels, has come so far. But it really connects with kids all readers it really. Yeah, we've seen that really sparks kids who may or may not love to read and then it kind of ties, you know, good, kids who love to read anyway are drawn to it but sometimes you're reluctant readers of graphic novels less intimidating. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, yeah. Another. I have friends who teach in the Bronx who say that the graphic novels are this like huge gateway for kids that like might not even feel comfortable reading or maybe like English language learners or... it’s a nice, nice I like that and I think it makes, it can make, like, difficult topics more accessible. I think that, like I'd rather read a history graphic novel than like read a history book. Yeah.
 
48:36 - Stephie
And the graphic novel “The Fun House” which is for adults.
 
Brianne
Making so much. It's amazing so many ways right now which is funny because I taught that book in my autobiographical comic book writing class for A26. I mean, my friend Grace and I taught the class together and we just we photocopied, like one page out of a bunch of different books and showed kids like these are different styles of autobiographical comics. 
 
Stephie
Well it, kinda as a segway but I think it's now on Broadway. It’s become a Play. And I think she has another graphic novel coming out. 
 
49:15 - Brianne
I know that she's like a regular comic, like a series. But I think that that kind of predates “Fun Home” but I don't know who the next book is.
 
Stephie
Well and that was, you know, for, for example in “My Mom's” book we read, you know, it was the first time I think a lot of people were exposed to a graphic novel. It just it's come so, there's, there's just so much more at every level, and and that's an example of amazing illustrations, and amazing narrative as well. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, I was really lucked into a great class, and that McAllister my first class was called superheroes. And it was English class that we studied graphic novels and then books about graphic novels, and books about superheroes, like Frankenstein and Orlando like these kind of like super human people in literature, but it was my, It was great, and it was my first exposure to, like, critical discussion about a graphic novel I think it was the first time I'd ever read a graphic novel. We read Watchmen. We read Dylan Horrocks, what is it called, “Hicksville,” it’s a great book. It's about New Zealand and they ended up studying abroad in New Zealand and then I came back and read it again was like, it's so cool because it's about the, I mean it's about a guy who loves comic books, but it's also about the, kind of mythology of New Zealand and, like, Captain Cook discovering New Zealand and his interaction with like the Maori people that were already in there legend of how New Zealand came to be and it's like you learn all this stuff. You don't even... 
 
Stephie
You have to go back through this tape and make a reading list.
 
51:03 - Brianne
I spent way too much time with books.
 
51:11 - Stephie
something else who said that. I'll remember.
 
Larry
So I didn't realize that the graphic novel question was going to just..
 
Brianne
I love graphic novels! And I don’t love them as much as most people do. I’m, like, no connoisseur, but I do know that they're like, I think they're incredibly under appreciated, and should just be like, thrown out like confetti.
 
51:34 - Larry
As an Illustrator there’s a whole other conversation about how you relate to, to not only the pictures, specifically as an artist but also how you would tell your stories in a picture book, as opposed to a graphic novel and vice versa. But those aren’t the questions that I want to ask is that much longer. I think, you know, the idea is kind of keep this under an hour, and we're getting close to it. So, what I wanted to maybe close with if Stephie doesn't have any more questions, are two questions. One is, what is the most important thing and putting you on the spot here and I recognize this, what is the most important thing you believe you learn from a teacher.
 
52:31 - Brianne
I have no clue. Actually I guess cuz we're talking about like learning styles, because I think that's where that's kind of what we're going for with graphic novels was I like, that someone's learning style, I learned better with that. I also think it's important to do the learning style that you're not good at, and I, I, so when I was in, let's see, fourth, fifth and sixth grade so at TAG, we had to every week give a science report out loud in front of the entire class. And it's like, my deepest fear, like, like you would you rather be buried alive or give a report in front of class. And. And I think that that was incredibly helpful to kind of just like stand up there and just get used to it and like those communication skills are super helpful and every single part of your life going forward so I don't know if I'd say that they taught me to like face my fears or if they taught you that you can just like practice something and get good at it and, but. That persistence is more important than natural ability.
 
53:48 - Stephie
So then when you have 250 first through fifth graders staring gymnasium. 
 
Brianne
Oh yeah, I was terrible. My first couple of presentations I was like, BLLL
 
Stephie 
Looked very polished to everyone,
 
54:03 - Brianne
Not through natural ability, It was through like going home and being like, Okay, I need to redo my entire PowerPoint presentation. I think it's something that like is probably the most important part of a when kids go to those presentations is like seeing that there's a huge leap between where they are and like where they'll be as an adult, and that you can kind of be like, I was really bad at these things, and then you just do them a lot. And then you're good at them. Like I have friends were like, “your such a better drawer than I am,” and I'm like, “you're such a better lawyer than I am,” and they’re like, “I went to school for that,” and I'm like, “I did to.” It’s not magic, you just keep trying it.
 
54:51 - Stephie
And, and wanting to keep trying. Have the love for it. And that's, I mean the segue’s to but having kids, especially local like when you're talking to an Old Mission and when you talk to other schools in our district, for them to say she went, like, she sat here, she was in my school being a kid here, and then she's really doing the thing that I'm wanting to do. That is incredibly powerful for kids.
 
Brianne
Yeah, and I actually don't remember this, I vaguely remember it but a cartoonist came to Old Mission when I went there, and I guess I came home from that author visit and my and told my mom that I wanted to be a cartoonist and was, like super inspired by it, yeah, vaguely remember this guy coming but, yeah, that's has a huge impact on me. Yeah, just like opening up the scope of, like, what you think is possible.
 
Stephie
And I think the library is clear on that, yeah and experiences for kids. Bring the world in and through books to the world for kids. 
 
Brianne
It opens you up to the things that you might not naturally seek out, like, I just went to our library on Woodmere the other day I was looking for books about Matisse and came home with a book about Danish chairs, because it was like sitting out on a table and I was like Oh, chairs! that’s what’s like, so magical about libraries is that you're like, you know, it's all just there. And you might kind of wander into something that you weren't looking for. And then the librarians are these like incredible gatekeepers who are just way smarter than I am.
 
56:37 - Stephie
But that's what we hope the libraries are doing is opening up all these possibilities. 
 
Brianne
Yeah, and that's something that like the internet can't replace. I visited an elementary school, where the librarian stands in the hallway, and she has like hand picked out books for certain kids and as she sees them walk by she would be like this book is yours. This is a really cool. I’m sure that they feel really special.
 
Stephie
And knowing your readers, you know, connections.
 
57:11 - Larry
Okay. So last question. And then ties in exactly you segueing your segue. What advice would you give a student interested in pursuing a career in publishing? So, you inspired one of those, one of those kids.
 
Brianne
I hope you like ramen noodles. You will not be rich. I guess, yeah, I guess what we've been talking about. Of course you have a natural interest in certain things but that, that persistence will get you way farther than any, like, ability you may have like out of the gate, and that, Neil Gaiman gave a speech that I think about all the time where he said that you only have to be two of three things, either have to be talented, pleasant to work with, or on time, you only have to be like, be only two to those. It's like if you're pleasant to work and on time then you don't have to be that talented.
 
58:17 - Stephie
So true.
 
58:19 - Brianne
Yeah, you can. I think there's something, really something to be said for persistence and pleasantness.
 

EdTech Loop "Best Of" Summer Trailer

It’s Episode 88 of the not so newly branded EDtech Loop Podcast! We’re getting back to the podcast a little earlier this year with a few "Best Of," compilations from last years shows and maybe some commentary concerning this years WIREDTC Conference. Can't wait to get back in the studio to discuss what's new in Ed Tech!